Is there a point where it's more cost effective to switch to gas/nitro over electric?

[RAM]

Just wondering.

Electric seems easier and cheaper for small planes but what about larger heavier planes? When you start getting up to 8s batteries and large electric motors or carrying multiple batteries is there a point where gas/nitro is the better value? Specifically, when does liquid fueled make more sense than buying a bunch of expensive batteries and esc's?

 

[sierra_bravo]

first. Yes there is a point where motors powered by fuel is more cost effective then motors powered by batteries.

Second.
this is a really really good question because Nowadays we have electric motors that are equivalent to 65cc engines.

I went on tower hobbies and found one of these electric 65cc engines and the cost was $280. So it was cheaper then an equivalent gas engines. But then you need a ESC which cost $200 dollars. Oh and dont forget the 2 4cell 5000mAh lipo batteries which are $120 each. So in total a 65cc electric cost around $720. Which is a huge amount of money when a 61cc DLE gas with electric ignition and 2 to 3 gallons of gas depending where you live and a good gas pump all together cost $475.

So at least for a 65/61cc motor gas is cheaper by about $245. Oh and there is the convenience of not having to wait 1 to 2 hours for the batteries to charge. With gas(or nitro) all you do is refill the tank which takes less then 3 minutes. But you do have to manual start the engine but thats not to hard to do.


But there are smaller gas engines and smaller electric engines.

on tower hobbies the smallest nitro engines is the OS 15LA ABN
which cost $70 plus a gallon of 15% nitro which cost $20. So a .15 size nitro engine cost around $90 with a gallon fuel that will last more then a month. Maybe even 2 months if you dont fly twice a week. As for the electric solution a .15 size equivalent electric motor cost $70. The esc cost $40 and the battery cost $25.

for a .15 size engine again the fuel engine solution is cheaper by about $40. But of course you cant really use nitro/gas on fomies 'causes of the vibrations.


So there is a point where it's more cost effective to switch to gas/nitro over electric and it's when you have a balsa aircraft that needs a .15 nitro engine.


-Sam

 

[RAM]

Thank you for the informative reply.

What is the vibration worry with foam planes? Durability?

 

[pgerts]

It is more a question of what you like than a question of money.
You will find used or older not used glow (or diesel) if you ask older people at clubs.
Many of the engines are almost for free if you show the previous owner that you will use them.
A gallon of fuel will keep you in the air for many hours with a smaller engine.
Sierra mentioned a .15 cubic inch OS but you will find plenty of .049 or as small as 0.010 for the really ultra micro planes.

 

[pgerts]

Foam - depending on the foam.
I have a Multiplex Magister - 40-size foamie with an OS 46 LA - Durability? For ever - i think.

 

[RAM]

It is more a question of what you like than a question of money.
You will find used or older not used glow (or diesel) if you ask older people at clubs.
Many of the engines are almost for free if you show the previous owner that you will use them.
A gallon of fuel will keep you in the air for many hours with a smaller engine.
Sierra mentioned a .15 cubic inch OS but you will find plenty of .049 or as small as 0.010 for the really ultra micro planes.

thx also.

good to know they make em that small.

 

[sierra_bravo]

Pgerts thanks for posting extra info. I knew that motors came much smaller but I was sorta lazy and didnt feel like finding the estimated price for a small engine and i wanted to use only tower hobbies. I forgot to mension that the type of foam changes if you cant or cant use nitro/gas. On some foam types the vibrations would kinda shake the foam apart but only some types of foam.

-sam

 

[PeterGregory]

Good thread, great breakdown of costs SB.
Depending on where you live and how far you have to drive to pick up, but craigslist has some solid deals.
I see plenty of nice planes with good engines. You don't have to buy new or build, if you are able to do some preventive maintenance on clist finds.

 

[willsonman]

IMO the statements here are a bit flawed. You have to factor in the weight of the aircraft. The large "equivalent gas engine" size motors are for electric conversions of existing internal combustion (IC) aircraft. A great example of cost being a direct comparison would be my Top Flite AT-6 Texan. Previously powered by a Saito FA-82 golden knight motor. In its day, you are looking at a $300 motor new. For comparison purposes, the newer version of a Saito motor of this size is here. My electric conversion uses a $30 motor a $43 ESC and a $47 battery. No ballast needed and the plane performs just as well. That power setup is less than HALF of the IC power setup WITHOUT fuel.

On the other hand, my recent Sikorsky S-39 build at Flite Fest used a $36 motor and a $20 ESC with the same battery. So that is a $103 power setup. The real comparison is that the Texan weighs in at over 7 pounds. The S-39 has a wingspan of 76" and the Texan is 69" span. The S-39 weigs in at under 4 pounds. The difference? Well, other than material the big difference is that the Texan is over built for electrics. Electrics do not NEED so much reinforcement due to the lack of vibration and other stresses to an airframe.

Another big factor is how you setup your power system. I'm a scale guy so I try to keep my RPM minimal in my power setups. My 9-pound P-47 razorback uses two 6S batteries in parallel, for the nose ballast ONLY! I can get 13+ minute flights from it but I usually only fly for around 5 minutes at a time. Just my style. The span? oh, a mere 67". See the difference? The HEAVIER your aircraft is the more power you need. If you build FOR electrics then you do not need these extremely high-powered setups.

I know this is long but I'm passionate about electrics and their application to scale aircraft. Dummy motors and other scale details would not be possible using IC engines. I hate when a IC Mustang has an awful cylinder head and muffler hanging out. But for others they prefer the sound and smell of burning fuel. I NEVER have a problem with startups, humid days, cold days, bad fuel, pumps, cleaning post-flight, cracked fuel tanks, fuel-proofing, throttle linkage, .... among a myriad of other things that go wrong because of IC flying.

Again, JMHO, take it for what its worth.

 

[bhursey]

I was gas in the 90s. Quickly switched to electric becaise the mainance was lower, i love not have to sit there and adjut my carb with my knuckles feeling like they were going to be cut off. Tower hobbies in the example is verry expensive. If you use places like hobby king and shop smart you can go cheep. Now days its a ton better than in the 90s. Once you have about 3 or 4 bateries and a good field charger you can go all day just rotate without stoping. Also you can just have a small to mid size one in your trunk all the time and on your way home just run by a park and do a quick flight without having to worry about noise.. My club i was a member of was all gasers through the 90's every one started moving to electric and now its 95+% electric.

 

[RAM]

Lots of good feedback. Thank you all.

I was thinking there might be a point where the investment in batteries outweighed the cost of a gas engine setup. Doesn't sound like it's the case since so many of you came from gas flying and stay with electric now..

Thanks again.

 

[bhursey]

Lots of good feedback. Thank you all.

I was thinking there might be a point where the investment in batteries outweighed the cost of a gas engine setup. Doesn't sound like it's the case since so many of you came from gas flying and stay with electric now..

Thanks again.

You don't have to drop gas altogether. I just got tired with the maintenance and mess. My first plane was a trainer with gas flew it for about 4 times. Then my friend had an electric he was showing me it. Now this was in the 90's. I was like wait you just take it out of your car and take off. He was like yep... I fell in love.. My gas trainer ended up in the corner of my hobby room. I feel kinda bad because the engine pretty much needs to rebuild.. I tried to give it away for free at the club and to friends no one wanted it..

I am starting to get into FPV. This may be a fun relaxing one to get. Also it is relitivly inexpensive.. The bix3 http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...ainer_FPV_EPO_1550m m_PNF_AR_Warehouse_.html 113.30

The pnf is everything but the radio rx/tx and a batery..

Then say get 3 batteries for 9.99 each http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/..._2200mAh_3S1P_25C_X_Thin_U S_Warehouse_.html

Charger 16.39 http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...6_DC_Charger_5A_50W_Copy_AR_Warehou se_.html

So you can get a fun set up to fly around the field for 159.66. You can of courses buy different type of aircraft. I am just listing this as an example to get in cheep with a decent plane

Poke around hobby kings web page and see what they have. Note if in the US pay attention to location, expecaly with lipos. HongKong ware house is cheeper but shipping is more and you have issues getting batteries. So always get batteries local. I am on the east coast so I use that location..

 

[JoeB76]

Very good info. My son and I recently received an O.S. 46 engine and I was seriously thinking of building something to use it in. The other option is to sell it and use the money towards something electric. We currently fly all electric but I want to get into something a little bigger but use more balsa than foam. Think we'll stay electric.

 

[ZoomNBoom]

Lots of good feedback. Thank you all.

I was thinking there might be a point where the investment in batteries outweighed the cost of a gas engine setup. Doesn't sound like it's the case since so many of you came from gas flying and stay with electric now..

Thanks again.

Its clear that at some point, electric will be more expensive. Just look at full scale planes for an extreme example. Im not even sure at the other end of the spectrum, electric is necessarily cheaper. A .049 cox engine is about a small and cheap as it gets for glow engine, costs $30 at HK. That little motor still puts out around 200W worth of power, a battery and electric motor that deliver similar performance will not cost a lot less.

The reason most people have switched isnt cost, its noise, smell, hassle, .. (and finger injuries)

 

[KRAR]

Here is my honest opinion:

Electric -
Positives - Awesome power, little maintenance, Just easier overall.
Negatives - Needs batteries, so unless you have a portable charging setup can't fly all day. shorter flight time overall (approx 5- 7 mins)

Nitro -
Positives - the sound, the smell, can get a gallon of nitro for ~ $30 and get in 10-20 flights depending on size of tank
Negative - messy, tuning, needs starting gear - glow plug ignitor, starter, battery for starter.
Gas -
Positive - Gas is cheap , sound, smell
Negative - messy

I got a little off topic there. To me the price point does not really start to matter until you get to the 75" wingspan or larger. I do not buy from HK, I have seen to many problems with electronics from them. I am talking about a hacker electric motor vs a DA motor. The DA 35 is 429, the electric conversion of equal quality is $269, with a $100 ESC, and a $100 - $175 6s 5000 mah battery. So $469 for the electric on the cheaper end. There was a guy a flew with with a 104" plane, had a ~$800 electric motor, 12s 10 000 mah battery setup and a 200 amp esc.

Up until that price point it is about what you already have versus what you want.
If you have nothing for electric you need a charger, a few batteries, ESC, motor.
If you have nothing for nitro you need, motor, muffler, starter setup, fuel, glowplugs
If you have nothing for gas you need motor, pipe, fuel.

So it is all about perspective
It is also about what you like.. I like the smell and the sound of nitro. Just something about nitro/Gas sounds and smells awesome to me.

 

[bhursey]

Here is my honest opinion:

Electric -
Positives - Awesome power, little maintenance, Just easier overall.
Negatives - Needs batteries, so unless you have a portable charging setup can't fly all day. shorter flight time overall (approx 5- 7 mins)

Nitro -
Positives - the sound, the smell, can get a gallon of nitro for ~ $30 and get in 10-20 flights depending on size of tank
Negative - messy, tuning, needs starting gear - glow plug ignitor, starter, battery for starter.
Gas -
Positive - Gas is cheap , sound, smell
Negative - messy

I got a little off topic there. To me the price point does not really start to matter until you get to the 75" wingspan or larger. I do not buy from HK, I have seen to many problems with electronics from them. I am talking about a hacker electric motor vs a DA motor. The DA 35 is 429, the electric conversion of equal quality is $269, with a $100 ESC, and a $100 - $175 6s 5000 mah battery. So $469 for the electric on the cheaper end. There was a guy a flew with with a 104" plane, had a ~$800 electric motor, 12s 10 000 mah battery setup and a 200 amp esc.

Up until that price point it is about what you already have versus what you want.
If you have nothing for electric you need a charger, a few batteries, ESC, motor.
If you have nothing for nitro you need, motor, muffler, starter setup, fuel, glowplugs
If you have nothing for gas you need motor, pipe, fuel.

So it is all about perspective
It is also about what you like.. I like the smell and the sound of nitro. Just something about nitro/Gas sounds and smells awesome to me.

The thing though with gas through is flying locations. They are much louder so you mainly need a dedicated field. I had a gas trainer then my friend showed up with his electric plane. While I was sitting there tuning my carb and cleaning up he was flying. If you have 3 batteries you can be rotating and fly all day long with a car charger.

Although I don't fly very large aircraft. To much trouble to move and take care of. Back when I started it was like 95% gas 5% electric in the 90s. now its more like 60% electric 40% gas. Times have changed. However when it comes to large scale electric can be pricey. I do buy from HK however I found do your research on the motors and so on before hand. Lipos are crazy light compared to nicads and nickel metal hydrates I flew with in the 90s with speed 400 and 600 motors. So it all depends on what you like to fly.. I do sorta miss the days of balsa kits and .40 motors. It seemed much more tight nit type of thing. Clubs were basically the only place people flew. However with 2 kids and a small house now days I just want to get out and fly. I am though about to join a local club.

Note over time gas can get expensive, and if you don't have a local shop its a pain I would think. I worked at a hobby shop when I flew nitro so it was kinda easy to come by Now I have to order everything online. Batteries are a once every few years kind of thing no re occurring cost per flight.

I think its all based around preference and what your trying to fly...

 

[roversgonemad]

So, I'll chime in. I think I have a plane that is at the tipping point. I have a 27% Extra 260. It takes two 5S 5800 mAh batteries per flight. Even the hobby king batteries are $65 each. To have three sets of batteries, that's nearly $400. Then there's the cost of a charger and power supply to charge more than on battery at a time. If you charge at the field (ours has no electricity), you need a generator, and that's not cheap. I suppose I could do it with my car, but then it's going to be running so I don't drain the battery. The hacker motor on this plane was $250, not counting the 80A castle creations ESC, so that's meeting or exceeding the cost of some of the less expensive gas engines. So, when you add it all up, and figure $3/gal for ethanol free premium, for the cost of the batteries and the necessary charging equipment, you can buy a lot of gasoline. Mind you, I am talking gasoline, not glow fuel. Glow fuel is expensive. I fly glow for nostalgic reasons. Glow is much more messy than gasoline. So, once you start to get into the giant scale arena, I think a gasoline plane does start to make sense. That is gasoline, not glow. If I take a couple of .90 size glow planes to the field, I can go through the better part of a gallon in a day, and that's $21 gone in a hurry. Guys I know that fly gas might use 5 gallons of premium in a season. Long story short, gas really starts to make sense when you enter the giant scale arena. Especially in big planes that require 10 or 12S power systems.

 

[KRAR]

So, I'll chime in. I think I have a plane that is at the tipping point. I have a 27% Extra 260. It takes two 5S 5800 mAh batteries per flight. Even the hobby king batteries are $65 each. To have three sets of batteries, that's nearly $400. Then there's the cost of a charger and power supply to charge more than on battery at a time. If you charge at the field (ours has no electricity), you need a generator, and that's not cheap. I suppose I could do it with my car, but then it's going to be running so I don't drain the battery. The hacker motor on this plane was $250, not counting the 80A castle creations ESC, so that's meeting or exceeding the cost of some of the less expensive gas engines. So, when you add it all up, and figure $3/gal for ethanol free premium, for the cost of the batteries and the necessary charging equipment, you can buy a lot of gasoline. Mind you, I am talking gasoline, not glow fuel. Glow fuel is expensive. I fly glow for nostalgic reasons. Glow is much more messy than gasoline. So, once you start to get into the giant scale arena, I think a gasoline plane does start to make sense. That is gasoline, not glow. If I take a couple of .90 size glow planes to the field, I can go through the better part of a gallon in a day, and that's $21 gone in a hurry. Guys I know that fly gas might use 5 gallons of premium in a season. Long story short, gas really starts to make sense when you enter the giant scale arena. Especially in big planes that require 10 or 12S power systems.

There is also a point with power, at 26% and two 5s batteries I'm guessing you still only get 6-8 minutes of 3d flying. With that also the last 2 minutes of flying your battery voltage has dropped significantly.

Where with a gas engine that broken in properly tuned and good fuel, you can get 15 minutes of flying with the same amount of power the entire time.

As a side note to roversgonemad:

I built my own charging station, 24V DC at 70 amps for less than $100. Then I got a generac 2000 watt generator. I can fly all day long. and I only have one battery for my bigger heli/planes. I used two dell 6500 server power supplies. the cost of 2 more batteries for my 700 and 500, aka 2 more 12s 5000 and 2 more 6s 4500, was more than enough to get a charging system - power supplies, charger, generator.

 

[PeterGregory]

Diesel is where it's at, these days. Definitely diesels.

 

[BobbyZ]

It really comes down to size,the bigger the plane the better gas looks against electric although I think everyone should have a IC plane in their fleet Years ago I learned on a nitro plane and now I'm surprised at how electric is these days.They really have turned the tides but both still have their places.