MAVIC!

[Bigs]

Why aren't you guys talking about the DJI Mavic?

I had secret high hopes but expected to be disappointed - but I'm blown away!

Huge range, 27 minutes flying, smaller than the Karma, all the modes, inc follow me, obstacle avoidance, visual sensors for indoors and can follow terrain, for $1200 or less?


Did I mention the 4K camera on a 3 axis gimbal?

Or the full twin 1080p FPV goggles?

 

[Crazy Goats]

Hmm.. Well it came out just in the last few days and I for one am not a huge fan of DJI. I don't really like that the DJI (and many other manufacturors) quads are so easy to fly. It puts too much power into the hands of some idiot, who messes up the hobby for everybody. Not saying that you would do that, it just annoys me what people have done with these things.

But is sounds like the ideal tool for your purposes!

Sorry for the rant, everytime DJI puts out a new quad it bothers me.

 

[PsyBorg]

I am not a big DJI fan either. I have dreams that it will someday carry the AI that destroys humanity. (Just kidding DJI) I do however agree that too many irresponsible people own and use them improperly which is why we have so much problems from regulating entities now.

That said I will still look into it to see what they are about as I have not heard, seen, or read ANY press on its existence.

 

[Bigs]

Seems the goggles aren't inc at that price - curious to know how much they are.

Well this drone, being so super tiny, may have pushed me away from the idea of a fixed-wing cruiser.

Even if I end up with a European 'CE' spec it still has over 2 miles range and up to 27 minutes flying time. Up to 7 miles if unrestricted!

Rather than lugging a ground station, big wings etc in a backpack and side panniers, I can just throw this little thing in my bumbag almost as an afterthought, concentrating on my riding and camping spot, more than the flying setup.

Batteries are under $90 and small too, so could easily carry a couple of spares...

I think I'm sold already Will just wait and see if any issues crop up, and if it really does meet the specs claimed.

Regarding resenting people having it too easy, that is indeed something that has repeatedly pushed me away from this hobby over quite a number of years.

My brother in law in the UK has long been into building scale models, and I recall many a fun time shooting his less-than-favorite ones with an air rifle.. I wanted to get into the hobby but for me it was always about the bird's eye view. I wanted to fit a tiny camera and go high, take photos..?

To him, that would ruin the aesthetics of the model, and talking to others I was basically met with a swarm of numbers ("Well I guess if you mated a P6544 with a VZP300, maybe a VZ500, you could hitch a 30TRY with a 100 or 150 HY, that would give you about 599 blurtz on a 50 giggity hicky, but then you'd need a Tittyjob 500 to even out the HY..")

I'd say over the years I've probaby butted my head against the RC aerial photography hobby about 4, maybe 5 times, and each time met with just too much resistance.

"Get a piece of cr^p you'll really hate first"

"Earn ya stripes!"

"Suffer like we did..."

"Buy these 3 books first, because telling you what you need would be too easy..."

And companies selling this stuff are no better. Never in my vague efforts did I ever find a store that simply explained what they were selling, what each bit did and why - instead you'd see "YIP 450, now only $79!!" But WTF is a YIP 450 and why would I want one?

I work as a consultant to websites, helping them improve their sales, and often have thought "If these guys just put together a total kit, everything you need, and I mean actually everything, not "everything except the motor and prop and a transmitter and a ground station and a..." but everything. 1 kit, 1 price, full instructions. It would sell like hot-cakes...

That's exactly what DJI have done, and with no assembly required too, beyond fitting the props and your phone into the holder - and they have indeed had great success.

However I think this is the first time I've heard an RC hobbyist actually admit that they resent DJI et al, for making things "too easy". I've long suspected (known, really) you guys secretly LIKE it being difficult to enter the hobby

You guys blame the DJI buyers, and DJI for making it easy, but you know what? If you RC types had made it easier to enter the hobby, then there would be a smooth transition as the tech improved, with many perfectly respectable people making FPV and flying cameras, with the concept gently entering the mainstream.

Instead you put up barriers, creating a pent-up demand that DJI fulfilled, and now suddenly people are presented with "drones!" and they naturally recoil - "They can SPY on us, sneak over the fence and steal stuff, enter open windows and rape our daughters with VR and the internet, think of the chilreeeen"

Blame DJI?

I blame you.

DJI have simply opened the doors to people that YOU peeps deliberately excluded, whilst claiming to help. Obviously I'm not talking about any of you personally, just the industry and hobby as a whole.

the result is we do indeed have people with no real clue reacting to a novelty. For everyone who says "They could SPY on us!" there's some yahoo thinking "Wow, with one of these I could SPY on people!"

Pent-up demand, now released, with people reacting to novelty. People hate new, they poke new with pitchforks and throw fire at it, while some, equally clueless, think they can spy on their neighbor's daughter while she's naked. I swear some people think Phantoms fly to the sound of classical music and have telephoto lenses...

As I said, you guys seem more noob-friendly than most, so not a personal dig. Heck, the guys running this seem really helpful, hence my somewhat optimistic attempt to ask for guidance regarding longer-range FPV.

Got the standard "suffer like we did, take a long time, learn slowly and painfully... pain is goooood.." response - and once again, DJI steps in, with a long-range FPV, compact for backpacks, no assembly required.

When people's smartphones can start flying, will you do the same again? "Oh, you don't want a flying Samsung, start with a Nokia flip-phone first.."?

I'm having a gentle dig at you guys, with a grin, but yeah, let the noobs in.

Or they'll buy a DJI

 

[Craftydan]

Blame DJI?

I blame you.

This isn't a dig, but an honest observation:

I believe you're greatly misunderstanding What DJI has done.

Yes, they have built an integrated, well designed package with everything Ready To Fly, but the technology to automate this in a nearly fool proof manner is new. The "years ago" you feel the established hobbyists kept you out, these technologies simply did not exist -- the enabling tech did, but not reliably and if you blanch at $1200, you don't want to know what they cost a decade ago.

You dig at others because they told you that you need to learn the underlying science and skills, but they did that because nothing existed but your own skill and knowledge to keep the plane in the air. It wasn't too long ago that Horizon was selling the "NEW" ACT (redubbed "Always Crash Technology" for good reason) as an "aid" to novice pilots. Their SAFE is night-and-day better . . . but the latest versions still have created autonomous fly-aways. The Tech is amazing, but it is VERY new.

The advise you were given then, while incomplete and poorly explained was not an attempt to keep you on the ground, but instead to get you to stay in the air. The DJI products are not evidence of the hobby keeping you out, but instead the march of progress. Do older pilots need to soften to this? Probably, to some degree. Do they have good reasons to mistrust the performance you're willing to blindly trust to the tune of $1200? Yes. Equipment fails. Autonomous controllers go on journeys of self discovery (and are never seen again). RF environments can become instantly crowded. Batteries sag early in flight. An average, clear weather, zip around the area flight on a well-built airframe requires next to no skill . . . but when something goes wrong, you have nothing but your skill and knowledge to keep the damage (craft/property/ lives) to a minimum.

Don't judge us because of past experiences -- we weren't there, and while the issues may have been poorly explained and the "explainer" ignorant of the why's, doesn't mean the overall advise was bad . . . although you should always take the expertise of someone selling you something with a grain of salt. I get you've hated the attitude -- you'll hear that hate echoed by most people here in one story or another. In some cases the distain is earned. In some cases our perception was a misunderstanding of what was really being said.

I've found *MOST* people in this hobby want the novice to succeed. We want YOU to succeed, even if we tell you something you want is a bad idea. A few don't care, but only a few. Those few don't last long around here, so I'd recommend you assume advise given here is for the former not the latter -- even the advise you don't like. Yes, it is half my responsibility to say convey information in a useable form to communicate, but if you want the information, the other half is yours.

 

[rockyboy]

I don't ever see myself buying a DJI product - I'd just rather spend $1200 on a whole lot of parts and tools to build cool stuff instead of a professionally polished platform.

But my favorite part of the hobby is building, and flying is just a way to see if I built something with high quality and durability or not.

 

[Crazy Goats]

I don't ever see myself buying a DJI product - I'd just rather spend $1200 on a whole lot of parts and tools to build cool stuff instead of a professionally polished platform.

But my favorite part of the hobby is building, and flying is just a way to see if I built something with high quality and durability or not.

I could NEVER see myself buying DJI. I love building too much. Its how I end up with 6 planes and not enough time for all of them.:black_eyed:

 

[Bigs]

Well ironically enough I'd love to built something myself - heck, I may still build that long-range slow, floaty cruiser, just for the fun of making something, with the goal of flying it - and if it works, bonus!

I fully understand the fun of building a rocket for example, where everything you're doing is building up to that moment of launch. I get that side, I do. What I don't get so much is why simple questions, such as asking for a basic shopping list, get what is basically shaking heads, finger wagging and "Slow down there, young pup, first you need to learn to navigate by the starzz..."

No.

I just need to know a suitable airframe and a shopping list of ALL the things required for 10 km FPV, with high-level electronics, such as waypoint autopilot, return to home and a quick overview of what else might be available (self-leveling? Anti-stall? Terrain following? What's available?)

If it's going to be short range, with short flight times, then why not just fly my Phantom?

Talking of which, I did today Most of my flights are 'up, swivel, down again' but the last 2 were full-on "let's go over there..." and I must admit, it's a real buzz

I noticed my thumb was trembling on the joystick lol. That's just watching a Phantom whizz off 200 yards away; piloting a FPV cruiser at 2 or 3 km would be scary as heck... On the bright side, my other hobbies include sea fishing in my 24 ft boat, also scary, off-roading in my Ford truck, where I'm more scared of expensive damage to the truck, and off-road riding on a bike, which is truly scary on some of the "roads" around here. Makes the thought of crashing/losing a $1000 RC craft pretty minor really... but I can't deny that trembling thumb

Anyway, glad y'all took my playful dig in the spirit intended

 

[PsyBorg]

The answer to RC community NOT making things easy before is this.

Stupid people tend to be lazy. If they have to work to be stupid they do something else. DJI has become an enabler making it too easy for stupid people to be lazy. For god knows how many years the RC community had fun , was safe, and pretty enjoyable unless you had the power Nazi running your AMA club. :black_eyed:

Along comes DJI and in under 6 moths the hobby is under siege because it was flooded with stupid people DJI enabled to invade the hobby. Are all DJI owners stupid , no. Like anything else though DJI knew what was happening and rode the cash copter for all it was worth. Is DJI putting out a great and innovative product yes, but they did it so irresponsibly it has hurt nearly everyone in the RC community. It's not ALL DJI's fault as there were instantly many copy cats on the market to grab their fat slice of the stupid people pie.

Now I guess we all just sit and wait for DJI to develop the AI that destroys the world by taking over the world with the Phantoms and now the Mavic will be its fighter escort.

Disclaimer: Some of this is serious some not so much. Take it all with a grain of salt and enjoy what you do before the governments lock it all down and all the technological advances in controllers is embedded under your skin and linked to DJInet.

 

[Crazy Goats]

The answer to RC community NOT making things easy before is this.

Stupid people tend to be lazy. If they have to work to be stupid they do something else. DJI has become an enabler making it too easy for stupid people to be lazy. For god knows how many years the RC community had fun , was safe, and pretty enjoyable unless you had the power Nazi running your AMA club. :black_eyed:

Along comes DJI and in under 6 moths the hobby is under siege because it was flooded with stupid people DJI enabled to invade the hobby. Are all DJI owners stupid , no. Like anything else though DJI knew what was happening and rode the cash copter for all it was worth. Is DJI putting out a great and innovative product yes, but they did it so irresponsibly it has hurt nearly everyone in the RC community. It's not ALL DJI's fault as there were instantly many copy cats on the market to grab their fat slice of the stupid people pie.

Now I guess we all just sit and wait for DJI to develop the AI that destroys the world by taking over the world with the Phantoms and now the Mavic will be its fighter escort.

Disclaimer: Some of this is serious some not so much. Take it all with a grain of salt and enjoy what you do before the governments lock it all down and all the technological advances in controllers is embedded under your skin and linked to DJInet.

Haaahahahaha! Thanks PsyBorg, I love it!

Hahaha and Steele's fake phantom will be flying through the ranks unsuspected.

 

[Bigs]

Thing is, consider "camera phones"..?

Wasn't that long ago that people were getting somewhat paranoid about seeing someone with a "camera phone" that could "record video pictures!"

The horror! The chilreen! People could (and some did) video up skirts, in locker rooms, and filmed other things that people would rather they didn't, including static and video selfies. But because it so quickly became mainstream, nobody bats an eye today when I pull out my 12 MP "camera phone" and fiddle with it.

Drones should, and could, become as familiar and unthreatening.

Hopefully little ones like the Dobby and the Breeze will become such a familiar site that when I buy my next drone my brother in law (different one) won't make 'jokes' about being able to spy through people's windows. Yes, I explained to him the large swarm of angry bees and the wide angle lens thing, but still.

As for enabling stupid people to invade the hobby, that rather reminds me of how people tutted at teenagers (teenagers!) with mobile phones, before they became "camera phones" and a threat to the chilreen.

But if it were easier back in the earlier days for peeps like me to enter, then there would have been a smoother, steadier influx of people into FPV and aerial photography. People outside the hobby would get used to it, and join in too if they were so inclined, without the barriers to entry.

Instead there was an invisible wall around the hobby, until DJI smashed a gaping hole in it, almost overnight.

And you wonder why there's a sudden influx of noobs, some of whom just want to "have a laugh", at the hobby's expense?



The free market is a bit like life - it will find a way.

I guess sooner or later the phone itself will become airborne; instead of using your phone as part of the controller you could just send your phone to go video something and come back...

What a time to be alive

 

[PsyBorg]

I guess sooner or later the phone itself will become airborne; instead of using your phone as part of the controller you could just send your phone to go video something and come back...

What a time to be alive

Already been done mate. What you need to wonder about is how long before police and gov't are using the wifi networks to fly automated patrol drones everywhere for surveillance and "Crime deterrent" missions. THAT is what all the cell phonie crap has been about not communications. Seriously why do people need gps, accelerometers and cameras on a phone.

 

[makattack]

I'm following this thread with some amusement, but just wanted to add that the lower cost of entry which Dan talks about, is basically enabled very much thanks to those mobile phones a few if you have mentioned. Those small, powerful processors, MEMS devices, et al that make up these phone/mobile computing devices is what made the flight controllers for multirotors so much more affordable.

On to the point about getting a detailed, step-by-step parts list and how-to of building your own autonomous aircraft, I feel there are plenty of those out there. Now, if you have a specific set of requirements, you'll just have to modify anything you find to suit your specific needs. I think it's too much to assume you can put out specifications for your particular needs and expect someone else to detail what you need. To me, that just seems to be a sign of someone unwilling to learn some basics of how to do something.

I remember my first time deciding I was going to save some money by performing my own brake job on my car. I could have gone to a shop and said "tell me how to change the brake pads on my car and what parts I need so I can do it on my own without paying you for it" but I didn't. I found service manuals for my vehicle, figured out the parts I needed, got the job done. Ultimately, I found that the time I put into it didn't really justify the savings on the cost, but it was still worthwhile as an educational experience that made me more familiar with my vehicle.

To me, it's the same way with these "drones" you can buy off the shelf. I'd rather know what makes them tick so that I can deal with any issues that arise and be as educated as I can about operating them.

To this day, people ask why I still drive a manual transmission car? My answer is that I like that little bit of control I have over it. I've driven both automatics and those newer "automatic manuals" which amounts to a robot changing gears for you. For 90% of the time, they select the right gear at the right time, but there's still the 10% that they get wrong that really annoys me. Maybe a little less for the DSG's.

Anyway, automation is great, I enjoy playing with them. I actually can't wait for when cars become fully automated and we can just call up a random pool car with our phone, hop in, and arrive at our destination without having to find parking, etc. Until then, I'll be driving my manual transmission car with a robot/mobile phone telling me where to go.

Things are fluid in this hobby. I was just going to link to the ardupilot site for a "how to on setting up a plane for autonomous flight" and noticed they have a how-to on using APM with the Parrot Disco flying wing:

http://ardupilot.org/plane/docs/airframe-disco.html

Here is their old build how-to with an old Bixler 1.0 fixed wing plane:
http://ardupilot.org/plane/docs/a-high-quality-bixler-1-1-build.html

 

[cranialrectosis]

The problem I have with DJI and 'off the shelf' drones is that they are often perceived as and sold as 'toys'. Fly them if you like, but realize, they are not toys.

The little NanoQX and the SymaX1 (where I started) are toys. You really can't hurt anyone or anything with them. I don't advocate crashing them into your roof, but if you do, no-one is going to get hurt and you aren't risking your home owners insurance unless you fall off the ladder fetching it.

People tend to not think so much about playing with a Nerf gun. It's a toy. My Savage model 12 in .223 is not. No one sells the Savage model 12 next to the Nerf gun and for a reason. People sell Symas right next to hobby grade DJI copters all the time and market them to the same people. The less expensive/smaller/simpler they become, the more the public regards them as toys.

DJI makes hobby and professional grade tools. EVERY time you fly one, you risk life, limb and your homeowner's insurance. Every time I fly my Alien, I put <> $800 of my own money in the air. That is nothing. If the copter flies off and up, gains altitude and runs out of power, that 800gram machine can cause far more than $800 in damage. It can kill. Therefore it is not a toy. Period.

When I handle my model 12, I give it the respect it deserves. My life and the lives of others depend on it. If you don't understand how the firearm works, don't touch it.

When I handle my Alien copter, I give it the respect it deserves. My life and the lives of others depend on it. If you don't understand how it works, don't touch it.

I won't handle a rifle I don't know how to use. I won't let anyone handle my rifle until I am certain they understand how to use it. This isn't be being a condescending a-hole. It's me realizing the AWESOME responsibility I accept when I handle or hand off deadly tools.

I have a lot of fun flying and shooting and making my own ammo. I have all my fingers and toes and both eyes and I thank my father for that. Yeah, sometimes it can be a real drag when I have to ask someone on the firing line to put a weapon down and back away from the line, but I and the other range officers do so because we care enough about people to step up and say hard words so you don't have to learn the hard way.

Some people get very upset. I'd rather suffer the embarrassment of being pulled off the line, than suffer the horror of accidentally killing someone. For the same reason, I don't cuss out the cop giving me a speeding ticket. I thank him/her.

Safety is a mindset, not a group of rules. It requires a blend of humility, intelligence and courage. DJI marketing and the mall hobby kiosk do not, IMO, instill the proper mindset. The guys at the local rifle store and at the local club who care about you and others and who take on the responsibility to teach others, do.

Thanks dad for taking the time to sometimes be the bad guy and making me learn ALL the aspects of having fun. I have no doubts but that I am a better man (if a bit long winded) for having learned the right way.

 

[PsyBorg]

Well said mate.

Part of the problem lies with the new generation of I want it all, I want it now, and I am not willing to work for any of it if effort is required. I blame a lot on parenting skills and the lack of common sense. I'm not ripping on the op but this is an example of "I want.. gimme gimme," with out any want to learn or figure things out. Its the gamer generation (I'm a heavy gamer btw.) and that whole cookie cutter mentality the games have all digressed to.

Back when we were all kids (when we walked to school uphill both ways carrying the horse wearing a worn out shoe on one foot and news paper on the other) I would most times sit IN the box my toys came in while taking them apart to learn how they worked and getting them back together with varying degrees of success. That is a developed skill and today people simply don't get that fact.

Companies like DJI have enabled those type of people to be able to do something they "Think" they have the skills for when they really don't because ZERO effort has been put forth to do so properly. This is one of the reasons I will help teach someone but will not just hand them a shopping list and say have at it. All I have learned about quad copters was probably over researched and I took baby steps to get where I am now and I am happy for doing so. Could I have gotten better faster by other methods.. probably but the common sense and learning is sometimes the best part of the journey.

 

[Bigs]

Great responses so far and good to see the other side.

Regarding the "want it all now" (WIAN) - not really.

What I want is the shopping list and basic overview - so from there I can research and build my own aircraft. WIAN is just buying a Parrot Disco off the shelf, which is exactly what I'm trying to avoid...

Regarding the safety side (and I'm a shooter myself, or used to be yonks ago) - the danger of a Phantom is way over-rated. I'd say the biggest danger is potentially distracting or surprising a driver and causing a car crash. The weight of the thing is just not much, especially with the bulky plastic body, while the blades are quite soft plastic. Sharp, but soft, so not really the "flying lawnmower" some seem to think. You could certainly hurt someone with a DJI Phantom but to kill them you'd have to repeatedly beat them about the head with it, using both hands. Again, the greatest danger is causing someone to jump, get distracted, lose their balance or some such.

There's a vid on YT where a Phantom suddenly falls out of the sky and lands on a woman's head, it promptly bounces off and the woman looks around with a "What was that?" look (and later of course claimed "whiplash"...) Heck, there's a vid where one takes off and smacks a groom directly in the head at full throttle for a wedding video. They continued using the Phantom for more footage that day, with no gore, no death, not even a broken drone.

Anyway, back to long-distance flight and the disco, people have also raised concerns that this 'flying wing' will also be a FLYING WING of DEATH... but as one wag put it, "Go ahead and throw 1.5 lbs of foam at me, as hard as you like?" Again it could be a fatal distraction, you could take someone's eye out - but you're not really going to be decapitating people with it.

I think for most people the thought of losing their expensive toy/weapon/craft/bird/drone/flying camera/UAV/Whatever is cause enough to be reasonably careful.

Talking of safety, and I would have got this over the Phantom is available at the time, have y'all seen the 'Snap' drone?

Yes, I agree are 'smart' phones are perfect bugging devices, record audio, taking photos and plotting our exact location, and we pay for the device ourselves. Fact is, the device is just too darn handy not to, really.

Thank you Makattack, the link to the Bix thingy looks interesting...

 

[PsyBorg]

Me thinks you have not seen the correct videos for prop safety...

Do as you please and think what you want. Just don't expect people the feel bad should you get hurt with that kind of ehhh take on safety mate. BTW that really surprises me after reading you have a shooters background where safety is highly stressed aspect of the hobby.

 

[Bigs]

I'm sorry but anyone who has used a grinder will see the trick used here.

Fact is, the Phantom's little motors just don't have the torque to do real damage, unless slowly edging the blade in as show in the vid they will stop upon hitting human flesh, and the blades themselves are too soft to cut bone.

A carbon fiber blade on a racing quad is a whole different story, but if we're talking Phantoms then yes, they could just about cut your skin, maybe even leave a scar, but having seen 2 people walk away unscathed from direct headshots it's clear they are just not in the same league as firearms.

Now the petrol-driven craft or single-blade choppers you guys fly, THOSE things are dangerous (ought ta be a law!)

 

[m00ndancer]

I'm sorry but anyone who has used a grinder will see the trick used here.

Fact is, the Phantom's little motors just don't have the torque to do real damage, unless slowly edging the blade in as show in the vid they will stop upon hitting human flesh, and the blades themselves are too soft to cut bone.

A carbon fiber blade on a racing quad is a whole different story, but if we're talking Phantoms then yes, they could just about cut your skin, maybe even leave a scar, but having seen 2 people walk away unscathed from direct headshots it's clear they are just not in the same league as firearms.

Now the petrol-driven craft or single-blade choppers you guys fly, THOSE things are dangerous (ought ta be a law!)

With all the hairline painful cuts I have from my Hubsan 107, I disagree (Learned fast that even a toy quad have no problems cutting your skin.). The blades from a Dji might not cut thru bones, but the big flesh-wound will be as serious.
Granted, you won't die from it, but the scarring is bad enough.

That's just the point, since you can't see if the quad that's landing on your head have "soft" blades or carbon fibre ones, you have to treat every flying thing with respect.

 

[liamstrain]

I don't generally like DJI's cameras, and don't really have a need for an ultra-compact camera quad. I'm more moving the other direction, with bigger payloads, and bigger cameras (that I can control - ditto gimbals).

That said, it looks like a great package for many users. The Mavic, GoPro Karma, and Yuneec Breeze - are interesting - all looking to serve this step above selfie-drones. Better tech, better cameras, more compact (but still capable) - for people not looking to make this a more serious part of their life, but still wanting more than what a Parrot can do for them. Glad to see both companies continuing to refine the tech.