New to fixed wings, First time builder... What for first fixed wing 3Ch or 4Ch?

[DrDiff]

Hi All! I have 30 years of RC Surface experience and just this year I got into quad copters. Back in 1987 I got into RC surface to learn the electronics aspect. I have a Taranis Plus TX and a spare RX. So Why not jump into fixed wings? I can fly the quad OK. I am not a FPV Pilot or a Racer.

When I got into RC Surface everything was a kit. I am not afraid of building. So for my first fixed wing aircraft, would it be better? Thinking something like a FT bushwacker, or FT Simple Storch. Or should I just go with something like the FT Oddball or FT Flyer.

I am afraid that I will grow tired of a simple 3 channel plane rather quickly. Money is EXTREMELY Tight, So tight I dont know if I should even do this right now. and if I do this, It is not like I can pop another $40 on another kit in a month or so. When I bought my first motorcycle I bought a bike that was too small for me and I quickly grew tired of the cramped bike.

Please share your experience and thoughts.

I would love to hear Josh and Josh's comments. I know Simple is better, but can one go too simple?

Maybe I should take the money and throw it towards a FPV setup for my quad...

Thanks

Dean

 

[Capt_Beavis]

I am a bit of a heretic around here. I don't think that the FT speed build kits or scratch builds are a good way to get into the hobby unless you have a mentor. The Storch is a great plane and can be a great trainer but just about every plane will have trim and CG problems on the first flight. Someone new to flying will have a horrible time reacting. After a few months you may be ready to advance from a 3 channel but they will always remain fun to fly.

I learned to fly on a Duet and I taught myself. Another great option is a Sport Cub S, my kids have leaned on it and it is 4 channel. Scratch building isn't a whole lot cheaper by the time you get all of the electronics, radio and receiver most builds will exceed the cost of a Sport Cub S and all will be above the Duet. Of course, some of that equipment can carry over to future planes. Welcome to the hobby!

 

[HawkMan]

I dunno. I don't think the plane you learn on matters, but if you have access to DTFB then even if they're not "cheaper" to build. they're damn cheap to repair WHEN you crash, again and again of course flying a sim first and flying with a solidly built well balanced plane that you know flies well will mitigate alot if not all of the crashes if you fly with some sims and learn to be gentle on the sticks first.

as for channels for the first plane. unlike a lot of people I don't reccomend 3 channel planes. it's easy enough to grasp the concept of ailerons, and they're more logcal and predictable than rudder, especialy for a beginner. with ailerons you're also able to correct the plane when it starts rolling, whereas a newbie flying a 3 channel could end up over turnign and go into a roll-spin and crash because he doesn't have the height or skill to recover, whereas if he had ailerons he could correct easily.

For me it's just not natural to learn on a 3 channel when you're never going to end up using the rudders for much when flying anyway. why learn to fly something you're not going to use, especially not in the way you used them when you learnt, it's backwards and just teaches bad habits.

 

[localfiend]

I dunno. I don't think the plane you learn on matters, but if you have access to DTFB then even if they're not "cheaper" to build. they're damn cheap to repair WHEN you crash, again and again of course flying a sim first and flying with a solidly built well balanced plane that you know flies well will mitigate alot if not all of the crashes if you fly with some sims and learn to be gentle on the sticks first.

as for channels for the first plane. unlike a lot of people I don't reccomend 3 channel planes. it's easy enough to grasp the concept of ailerons, and they're more logcal and predictable than rudder, especialy for a beginner. with ailerons you're also able to correct the plane when it starts rolling, whereas a newbie flying a 3 channel could end up over turnign and go into a roll-spin and crash because he doesn't have the height or skill to recover, whereas if he had ailerons he could correct easily.

For me it's just not natural to learn on a 3 channel when you're never going to end up using the rudders for much when flying anyway. why learn to fly something you're not going to use, especially not in the way you used them when you learnt, it's backwards and just teaches bad habits.

To add a counter voice to the mix. 3 channel planes that are self stabilizing have had the best results for me when teaching new folks to fly. The flitetest 3 channel planes, like the FT flyer, or Tiny Trainer self level, and will not roll unless you turn up the rates and get frisky with the throttle. And you're not really learning that much that's new going from a rudder to aileron controlled plane if you're using the aileron channel for controlling the rudder. Stick movements are the same.

When using the buddy box, I've had to take over way more often teaching someone to fly with ailerons than with the FT Flyer.

If money is tight, scratch build. Go to the dollar store and buy some foam. Cutting it yourself for something simple like the FT flyer takes all of 30 minutes for a first timer.

If you don't want to put in the effort, buy the 3 pack (Nutball, FT Flyer, Delta). It's cheap for all three. You won't be bored. After you crash, repair, crash, repair & master the FT flyer you can move onto the nutball. The Nutball is one of the funnest planes I've flown. It can just do so many goofy things. The 3 pack will all use identical electronics, and those electronics can be had very cheaply.

 

[HawkMan]

Well sure you use the same stick, BUT it's still a different way to fly, sure it may be easier to fly, but you're not preparing them to fly the planes they will be flying after they're off the trainer. and honestly, with a good trainer, anyone should be able to take a stable 4 channel to the air after enough hours on the sim.

The first plane I properly flew was my Beaver, with floats, on a lake. before that I had only flew my ARC fuel Cessna and only in the air at high altitudeds, and the last time before I flew the beaver was years earlier.

It's not hard, and teaching them that planes self stabilize in itself isn't necessarily a good though. just not a fan, I've seen 3 channel planes roll over and drop straight down like a lawn dart on newbies, they need/want to turn to avoid the plane getting to far away and don't understand that turning to much will cause it to roll over and drop.

I'd rather they train on a SAFE/WISE trainer than a 3 channel personally.

 

[localfiend]

Well sure you use the same stick, BUT it's still a different way to fly, sure it may be easier to fly, but you're not preparing them to fly the planes they will be flying after they're off the trainer. and honestly, with a good trainer, anyone should be able to take a stable 4 channel to the air after enough hours on the sim.

The first plane I properly flew was my Beaver, with floats, on a lake. before that I had only flew my ARC fuel Cessna and only in the air at high altitudeds, and the last time before I flew the beaver was years earlier.

It's not hard, and teaching them that planes self stabilize in itself isn't necessarily a good though. just not a fan, I've seen 3 channel planes roll over and drop straight down like a lawn dart on newbies, they need/want to turn to avoid the plane getting to far away and don't understand that turning to much will cause it to roll over and drop.

I'd rather they train on a SAFE/WISE trainer than a 3 channel personally.

You make a good point if you spend the money on a SAFE style trainer or buy a good simulator. But if you're trying to teach somebody by spending the least amount of money possible, 3 channels are great. SAFE planes and a decent flight simulator with an actual controller blow the $40 budget out of the sky.

I've found that the biggest thing to overcome with a new pilot is orientation and throttle management. They can work out those things on a trainer and jump right into something with ailerons with little trouble, or they can start off with a 3 channel and transition with the same ease. I really haven't noticed any bad habits formed in newbies when they transition from rudder to aileron control, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

 

[Gryf]

I learned to fly on a 3-Channel FT Old Fogey. It was something of a sacrificial lamb... I beat the daylights out of it, but finally got the basics down and ended up flying it effortlessly. After three new wings and a new nose section, I retired it and it's hanging in my den. I then transitioned to 4-channel with an FT Spitfire (amazing design!) and now have a batch of different planes in the "hangar", all with different characteristics, and I enjoy them all.

Echoing what was said above, if money is tight (as it is in my case too), Dollar Tree Foam Board is the way to go... or if you have a Walmart handy, see if they have Ross board. It's cheaper, and is quite nice to work with. It can be really discouraging to sink a pile of money into a store-bought model just to lose it, right off the bat. Face it, you're going to crash, and I'd much rather see $4.00 worth of foamboard hit the turf than get only one flight out of a brand new store plane that cost north of $200 or so. Electronics from your FT plane can easily be transferred to your next build. One of my planes is an FT flyer (modded into 4-channel with ailerons), and it's fitted with the motor from my original Old Fogey. (By the way, ailerons are a pretty simple addition to the Flyer. You can learn 3-channel with the stock Flyer, then add the ailerons and learn 4-channel. Now that I think of it, that might be a good promotion for the Flyer!)

Anyway, think of your first FT models as the next step up from a flight simulator - you don't fret about crashing in a sim, since crashes are free. ;-) and with FT models, crashes aren't free, but are still really cheap.

Cheers, and best of luck,

Gryf

 

[ZoomNBoom]

You make a good point if you spend the money on a SAFE style trainer or buy a good simulator. But if you're trying to teach somebody by spending the least amount of money possible, 3 channels are great. SAFE planes and a decent flight simulator with an actual controller blow the $40 budget out of the sky.

I've found that the biggest thing to overcome with a new pilot is orientation and throttle management. They can work out those things on a trainer and jump right into something with ailerons with little trouble, or they can start off with a 3 channel and transition with the same ease. I really haven't noticed any bad habits formed in newbies when they transition from rudder to aileron control, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

Im with HawkMan on this. Rudder only is just weird and counter intuitive. All that tail waggling also looks so wrong and ugly. If you want the student to have one less channel to worry about, then let him ignore the rudder.

Self stabilizing is something else, it doesnt have anything to do with rudder vs aileron, its just a matter of dihedral mostly. And I can see the appeal of that for students, but even that is not always clearly a good thing. The Bixler 2 is extremely self stabilizing (and hey, it has ailerons!) and Ive noticed that can actually confuse students as to what the control stick actually does, controlling roll rate vs roll angle. At least with a "safe" plane, it is clear its one or the other depending on the mode. With an overly stablized plane (like the bix2 IMO) its somewhere inbetween. (Thats also why I dont much like flying it).

I do agree with you that particularly orientation is the biggest initial hurdle for new pilots and therefore, just about anything that flies will be good practice, heck even driving RC cars is good practice for that! But the OP has experience flying multirotors line of sight, so that wont be a big hurdle for him. IN fact, having 4 channels to operate shouldnt be a problem for him, assuming he is no longer just hovering, nose out. You need those 4 channels more on a multirotor than you do on a plane.

Anyway, to answer the OP's question "can one go too simple? ". Id say: yes, certainly. Although rather than simple, Id say "too limiting". Then again, hopefully by that time money wont be so tight anymore that you can afford some extra foam boards and build something a little more challenging.

 

[ZoomNBoom]

OH and btw, if you google around there are plenty free RC simulators. Here is one thats not even half bad:
http://www.rowlhouse.co.uk/PicaSim/

 

[RCman50]

I started out the same way,with years of rc surface experience, found FT on YouTube and built an old fogey out of elmers board, I thought elmers looked nicer and the people at FT were just to cheap or sponsored buy adams (dtfb), lol, boy was I wrong, it's twice as heavy. Never did fly the fogey and was about to give up. Imo I would do what I did and build the FT Flyer with simple landing gear first and fly fly fly it. And after that fly it some more. Practice your landings over and over. I still enjoy the flyer. If you cover it in packing tape it'll last a long time. Mines going on over 3 months and still looks fresh. Then build a storch. The bigger wingspan makes a lot of difference with stability and it flies like a dream. I found the shorter wingspan FT ships are a lot more twitchy to fly when your just starting out. I found the transition from rudder to aileron no big deal. If it wasn't for the FT Flyer I would've gave up most likely. Good luck and welcome to the family. Just my .2¢ and experience.