Receiver lockouts at FF15

[ZoomNBoom]

DSM2 is known to be pretty rubbish even under the best of circumstances, and as Nerdic pointed out, regardless of the brand: its just not a resilient protocol. If orange receivers have a worse name than Spektrum, then its only because spektrum mostly stopped selling DSM2 gear some time ago in favor of DSMX and orange has only more recently began making that switch.

But the problem with those older radio protocols goes beyond the risk it (always) poses to their owner; they also increase the problems for everyone else if you have dozens of them. Frsky D8 (and even V8) have been absolutely bullet proof for me far away from large events, but they dont comply with the above linked regulations either and should therefore also be deemed a risk to everyone else in a very crowded space.

That is why I feel they should be banned at big events; additional measures could be taken to limit interference from wifi and other devices that might interfere in the 2.4 GHz band. For instance if there any wifi access points, limit them to 801.11n 5GHz and while you're at it, select channels that are furthest removed from FPV channels.

When you have that many people and radio devices, you probably cant eliminate all issues, but some steps could go a long way to minimize the risks.

 

[mgray1425]

I had 3 lockouts that resulted in crashes and 1 lockout that I recovered from. I'm using a DX9. First two lockouts were with a DSM2 AR500. I recovered from the first one and crashed on the second. At that time I changed the receiver to the DSMX AR400 and experienced another crash. At that point I thought something was wrong with the plane so I decided to fly my quad which is also using a DSMX AR400. The quad also crashed. In all of these instances, the aircraft became unresponsive.

I don't know if there is any impact from it but I do know that there was an active wifi network from the nearby house but I am not sure which frequency it was operating on. I also know that the Yuneec quads use a wifi network for video transmission.

 

[Timmy P]

And yet that is all you are doing. So congratulations on being so efficient at it that it comes with no effort.

If you have some actual reason to believe that the orange or lemon-branded receivers are unable to properly emulate the pretty simple but flawed DSM2 spec, let's hear it.



Exactly!

Sorry man didnt mean to ruffle you feathers.. I was taught that roomors were hear say of what people think happened. So I stated facts.. Real life experiences of people that I have talked to. Nothing but complaints... And by the way this is a thread complaining about the ability of some receivers ability to"properly emulate 'flawed' DSM2" So I don't feel I have said anything wrong here.

 

[wilmracer]

I had zero problems running DSMX with Spektrum transmitter and receivers.

I'll second this. 0 problems with the DX9 and spektrum receivers.

 

[Strix]

And yet that is all you are doing. So congratulations on being so efficient at it that it comes with no effort.

If you have some actual reason to believe that the orange or lemon-branded receivers are unable to properly emulate the pretty simple but flawed DSM2 spec, let's hear it.

I flew 4 planes. The 3 with ORX receivers had multiple radio hits. The 1 with a Spektrum receiver did not, even though I was flying it at the busiest possible time.

I wouldn't say that the ORX products are junk, but they are obviously inferior to actual Spektrum gear, _in my experience_.

All my stuff is DSMX, properly installed with the antennas oriented correctly. This is not simply a DSM2 vs DSMX issue. Many of my camping neighbors reported lockouts with DSMX gear, and in every case the receiver was an orange or lemon.

 

[Justwingit]

Check this video out......hmmm.....

Although I wasn't there fellas, I have experienced some pretty horrific RFI at a fly-in. Last year in Vegas at the "Ace in the Hole" fly-in there were MANY models burning in (some of them priceless scratch-builds...) that had all sorts of folks scratching their heads. It was so bad, we wound up giving the fly-in a new nick-name: "Carnage 2014". Most lock-outs were apparently on older DSM2 protocol, but there were some others, Futaba and FrSky, as I seem to recall.

I remembered seeing this somewhat recent FT episode where the gang has some interesting lock/brown-outs while flying at Fury Field:

If you watch the video between the 3:00 minute mark and the 7:00 minute mark, there may be some light shed on this weekend's occurrences, as ALL THREE of the pilots experienced loosing control of their aircraft at one time or another during that time frame. In fact, I think Alex actually stuffs his quad as a result. Josh nearly looses the Guinea, but miraculously saves it at the last second as his radio link is restored. In fact, at around the 6:40 mark Austin makes specific mention of the Wi-Fi system in the house that it has a "very strong booster". Peter then confirms that most Wi-Fi is 2.4 gHz.

I don't really know a whole lot about radios and such, so I'm not trying to be "Mr. Expert" in any way shape or form, so please refrain from getting on my case about whether or not they're technically "brown-outs", "lock-outs" or whatever. I just remembered the Flite Test gang having problems at the field during this episode and when I saw this thread I thought I'd post this in order to help those who had radio interference figure out what happened.

Cheers all and happy landings !

 

[510thousandths]

I have never had a lock out or signal loss at any event (FF14, FF15, Horizon indoor 14,15, or Neff 15) and run lemon rxs in dsm2. The only issue I have ever had was with a dsmx receiver in my beast 3dumx...after getting a new rx from horizon, I found out that the antenae had broken off the rx. One of the lemon Rxs I ran at FF this year has one antenae broken off, the other still attached...still no problems.

 

[Julez]

0 lockouts for me flying LemonRX DSMX protocol. To jump into the Orange/Lemon is bad convo- I've heard plenty of people hating on Orange (Though more from lack of originality than actually signal issues. I will peg them on failure of adapting DSMX quick enough.), but never anything bad about Lemon. LemonRX is a very cheap, simple, and good quality RX (Buy the DSMX version, it's only $4 more than the DSM2) that's actually recommended by the FT crew. I've had a single lockout ever flying Lemon and it was due to faulty antenna orientation.

On another note, I also always performed range checks prior to every flight. If you have bad interference or the RF noise floor is particularly high, you can bet it'll get picked up during the range check.

 

[mgray1425]

Software Update

I don't know how much difference this will make but I realized that I hadn't registered my transmitter and hadn't gotten any of the firmware update notices. I was still operating with version 1.01 and now I have updated to 1.07.

 

[Flynn]

2 out of the 3 guys in my group had some receiver issues. I had 3 different planes have problems. We all use spectrum and we found that it was all the small park fly orange receivers with the short 2 antennas. The long range Orange were no problem and neither was the spectrum receivers. We originally thought it was a DSM2 thing, but we narrowed it down to the small antenna receivers.

 

[Strix]

2 out of the 3 guys in my group had some receiver issues. I had 3 different planes have problems. We all use spectrum and we found that it was all the small park fly orange receivers with the short 2 antennas. The long range Orange were no problem and neither was the spectrum receivers. We originally thought it was a DSM2 thing, but we narrowed it down to the small antenna receivers.

This is consistent with my experience. The 3 receivers I had trouble with were all the Orange 615X, which is a DSMX receiver with a pair of short antennas.

 

[willsonman]

I heard time and again this issue popping up through the event. I'm surprised nobody is blaming the oil pump. Seemed to be the scape goat last years. LOL. At any rater, I flew DSM2 but there were maybe 5 other pilots there by the time I flew at 12:30 yesterday. Everyone just packed up and left when they woke up. It was sad because the sprinkles only started right when I landed. drizzled after that. I was able to pack up and get out despite the rain. And I was able to do some help with cleanup. Oh well.

 

[makattack]

I flew DSM2 but there were maybe 5 other pilots there by the time I flew at 12:30 yesterday. Everyone just packed up and left when they woke up. It was sad because the sprinkles only started right when I landed. drizzled after that. I was able to pack up and get out despite the rain. And I was able to do some help with cleanup. Oh well.

Were you flying the sikorsky? Looked like a great build. Can't wait to see it in an episode!

 

[willsonman]

I was! No episode. Basically by the time I got out there everyone had left and all the FT guys were saying good byes and cleaning up.

 

[rdiff]

willsonman, I was far enough away from the oil derrick. I didn't have any issues until the harvester was running on the other side of the corn.

 

[PeterGregory]

2 out of the 3 guys in my group had some receiver issues. I had 3 different planes have problems. We all use spectrum and we found that it was all the small park fly orange receivers with the short 2 antennas. The long range Orange were no problem and neither was the spectrum receivers. We originally thought it was a DSM2 thing, but we narrowed it down to the small antenna receivers.

Interesting observation Flynn - glad you piped up with this.

Someone with deeper tech knowledge needs to help us out with what happens if DSM2 signal is lost, or signal is lost on the park-flyer versions of receivers.

Some reading I have done have had people getting away - fast - from the OrangeRX park-flyer receivers to at least the R620x with satellites for diversity.

I bet by FF16 there will be a much better baseline of understanding of what is going on with all of this.

Seems major events may need a spectrum analyzer to detect radio transmitter/receiver frequency interference, and FPV, as well.

And, how about making sure people have their transmitters and receivers off when not flying? (Ugh - reminiscent of 72MHz frequency management!) Is there an analyzer that can tell how many 2.4GHz systems are active???

Cheers - Peter

 

[razor02097]

It is interesting hearing other people's experiences with the orange park flyer receivers. Very informative! I have a bunch of those orange park flyer receivers. They do great for the DTFB planes. I can build a whole pod for the cost of one name brand receiver!


Based on the information here I think if I were to attend a FF event I will toss in some FAAST receivers and rock my Futaba instead....just to be safe.

 

[Craftydan]

Someone with deeper tech knowledge needs to help us out with what happens if DSM2 signal is lost, or signal is lost on the park-flyer versions of receivers.

Some reading I have done have had people getting away - fast - from the OrangeRX park-flyer receivers to at least the R620x with satellites for diversity.

The fundamental change between DSM2 and DSMX is a DSMX RX/TX pair will roll to another channel if the link goes down. DSM2 picks a pair of links at power-up and stays with them. This would only affect it's resistance, but at an event with pilot registrations in the hundreds, that does become significant.

Diversity on the RX side will only help you if there's shadowing in your airframe -- if you can get the parts positioned such that a large RF-opaque part (battery, motor, carbon framing) can get between your RX antennas and TX for more than a split second, a satellite is a good thing to have regardless of the signal density. Noise on the band will make this worse, but burying your RX in a carbon frame or strapping it to the side of your monster-sized battery will limit your range at specific attitudes in an empty field.

Seems major events may need a spectrum analyzer to detect radio transmitter/receiver frequency interference, and FPV, as well.

I'd partially agree with this, but a good spectrum analyzer is a pricey piece of equipment. Add to that the sampling may need to be made at many points at both polarization (in fairness, this means setting the antenna on it's side and re-running the measurement) . . . and if the offending noise source is intermittent in nature, there's a GREAT chance you'll miss it, but the pilots won't.

There's also the issue of fixing the offender -- if they're over the line, the next step is to either ask nicely (if you lived next to an empty field that a large noisy crowd is gathering in and one of the trouble making organizers came to your home and asked you to turn off your internet for a few days, would you be accommodating?) or call the FCC (the correct solution, but the chance they'd not get to it in time, not find the problem, or make the situation worse is very probable).


I noticed some are proposing banning older gear outright on the flightline. Some shows like Nall have done something similar, but in a specifically identifiable way -- 2.4GHz only. Picking and choosing among the 2.4GHz protocols as approved or not approved (particularly using an EU standard in the US) is a non-starter.

Doing so would require the flightline approval of every RX/TX pair -- it's easy to spot a 72MHz radio and say "no", but inspections would require not only examining the TX *AND* RX, but also checking the bind was in the correct mode. It would also require banning gear lacking proper marking that might be good, might not -- hard to say what goes in some of those cheaper Chinese radios. On top of it all, it would still allow low power versions of radios with good protocols that might be resilient to the noise, but would be inappropriate to the pattern.

Frequency control boards were a way of life at any event because of the certainty of lock-out that came with the 72 MHz radios on overlapping channels. We're seeing it now on FPV-friendly events, for the same reason -- the guy playing with his VTX in his tent can shoot down a pilot in the field. They also don't prevent the use of certain gear, only time limited it to de-conflict -- there's a big difference between telling someone they can't fly until Joe has returned the peg and telling them they can't fly at all.

Old and lower standard 2.4 radio pairs do carry a higher risk of loosing control in denser environments, but the chance is far enough from certain to warrant the intrusive inspections required by such an outright ban.

 

[jhitesma]

I did see ibcrazy walking around with a spectrum analyzer in the bean field after the first Combat on Saturday - not sure what he was up to but he may have some interesting insights to share.

I didn't notice any lockout issues but I didn't fly all that much, a quick maiden, a few test flights and two combat flights on the BW I built for combat. My piloting was the bigger issue there (I haven't flown anything but quads/hex and FT mini's in so long I forgot what it was like to have ailerons again) I was running a lemonRX DSM2 with an Orange TX module and even in the thick of combat didn't have any lockouts.

I was nervous about flying my quad and hex since I'm running homemade flysky RX's on them. Flysky isn't exactly known for it's link resilience and my homemade RX's have really minimal antennas (just board traces, I usually fly fairly close proximity so haven't bothered to improve them yet.) So I was really sweating bullets the first time I put one of them in the air. And I did have an issue in the 4pm open combat on Saturday when I decided to try and blend some foam with my quad. I had originally assumed it was my battery sagging - but the more I think about it the more I'm starting to suspect I may have had some link issues as it just wasn't responding reliably (which led to me ditching it right in front of the speakers, it was coming towards the crowd and I didn't trust that I had full control any longer so I chose to chop throttle and let it fall rather than risk it coming any closer to the crowd.)

My father and bother in law were amazed that so many planes were able to be in the air at once. Neither of them had experienced modern 2.4ghz RC links yet and were wondering where the frequency board was to try and coordinate that many people

I was amazed that there were so few issues given the quantity and variety of equipment. I have to agree with CD's assessment:

Old and lower standard 2.4 radio pairs do carry a higher risk of loosing control in denser environments, but the chance is far enough from certain to warrant the intrusive inspections required by such an outright ban.

With that many pilots in the air at once (and a rather large percentage of them fairly new pilots at that) I was amazed that there weren't more issues.

 

[razor02097]

We're seeing it now on FPV-friendly events, for the same reason -- the guy playing with his VTX in his tent can shoot down a pilot in the field. They also don't prevent the use of certain gear, only time limited it to de-conflict -- there's a big difference between telling someone they can't fly until Joe has returned the peg and telling them they can't fly at all.

That seems to be why a lot of people are now using LHCP antennas. Less chance of interference from someone on same frequency in the area. LHCP seems to be not as popular right now..but I do see a lot more people on youtube with the LH antennas. Only a matter of time befor LH antennas are as popular as RH.

I did see ibcrazy walking around with a spectrum analyzer in the bean field after the first Combat on Saturday - not sure what he was up to but he may have some interesting insights to share.

Maybe to find a downed FPV plane? StoneBlue Airlines had a video about how to use an SA to find a down craft by searching for the video transmission.