Ultra budget quad build.

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Remembered that BuddyRC has more detailed specs on them:

http://www.buddyrc.com/angel-a2212-9-1400kv-out-runner-brushless-motor.html

Looks like on 3S with the 8x4.5's I've been running (and plan to continue to run since I have a pile of them) I should see about 710g of thrust at 12.7A. Stepping to an 8x6 we'd be talking 19A for an extra 10g of thrust. I may try them on 9" props but there's no numbers for that so I'd have to just bust out the watt meter and do some testing....But if I can get 710g of trust at 19A I'll be great. My quad ready for flight is around 850g (give or take 40g depending on FPV gear, GPS, and battery choice) so it should be quite the little rocket with these ;)
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Looks like USPS knows I'm working from home today and are doing their best not to kill my productivity.

My motors, new VTX and new antennas all went from "Expected Delivery May 6th" to "Out for delivery" this morning.

And all week long USPS has been here early in the morning with our mail well before lunch.

So of course today here it is almost 3PM and they haven't shown up yet :(

Every time the dog barks I'm running to the front hoping it's my new motors :D

The week long 20-30mph winds with 45mph gusts seem to have abated too with just 5-10mph winds predicted through the weekend. Come on mailman where are you!
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
This is going to be a bit different :D

10319918_10152009486571805_1249085641_o.jpg

Mailman showed up just before I had to go pick my daughter up from day care. Had just enough time to put one together and take a comparison shot with the 24g.

Need to get busy with the soldering iron now, need to convert the ESC's I just put 2mm connectors on last week up to 3.5's. They're 20a ESC's and the 2.0's are rated to 20a...and the 3.5's look like massive overkill for the size wire on the motors. But I'll feel better with the 3.5's on there. I only ever ran the 2.0's because the multistar ESC's came with them pre-soldered.

Fingers crossed my daughter is actually asleep and I can start. Was thinking about trying to qualify a before/after vibration test. I may hook it up to the config program and run a short props off log to compare before/after and see if a difference is noticeable.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Well, didn't get the logging to work but did get some video of the graphs in the config - noticeable difference between my beat up onld 24g motors and my shiny new angels.

Also put a 24g with collet and mount on my scale and it came in at 40g. Put a new angel with it's smaller collet and mount on and it came out at 60g. So I'm only adding 80g total with this upgrade - those 24g motors were heavier than I expected with those collets (which came in at nearly 14g themselves compared to just 6 for these new collets.)

And, while the motors came with 3.5mm male's (of dubious looking quality, I think I prefer the HK bullets) and I had plenty of 3.5 males to do the motors...I did not have nearly enough 3.5 females to upgrade my ESC's. Oops. Thankfully I noticed that after soldering only one set of 3.5 males. So for now I'm running the 2.0's. I think they'll be ok from what I'm seeing initially with the watt meter.

10330721_10152009801076805_250485598_o.jpg 10330781_10152009800311805_186238959_o.jpg 10320109_10152009801446805_82839378_o.jpg 10332990_10152009801726805_1673671023_o.jpg

The quad itself looks sharp with the bigger motors and smaller collets. These collets are small enough I can even make my CF props work with them...but I'm going to test out with my nylons first.

10342377_10152009822471805_1556389363_o.jpg

Only problem. Guys. I think I'm scared of this thing now. Holy cow. Fired it up without props just to test it all out and get rotations set and such. It's smooth. Much smoother than the 24g's were even when they were new. And the mounts on these were much easier to zip-tie - they feel much sturdier. The shafts did move in towards the center of the quad about 1/4" or so but I doubt that will cause any noticeable change. It was only pulling around 7 amps at full throttle with no props. But it still felt strong.

I put some props on and just ran it at idle...um...oh...wow. This thing almost wants to take off at idle now. I suspect hover will be somewhat lower on the throttle stick than it was before. Gotta remember to put my extra battery beeper on for the first flew flights since my TX timer won't be accurate (and I still can't get an accurate voltage on my telemetry even though I do get an accurate voltage connected over USB.)

I wasn't able to strap it down well enough to do any real throttle tests. But just at arm it purrs like a whole new creature. I'm scared. Just not sure if I'm scared of the power this thing now seems to have....or scared of what I may try to do with it...

Really hope the weather forecast was on. Now to go fix my FPV cam...new antennas and TX came as well :)
 

FinalGlideAus

terrorizing squirrels
You'll never look at the 24g motors again after flying the new motors! You'll also find flying acro MUCH easier.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Just did a quick test in the front yard. Wow! So much better! Much much smoother.

Despite my first impressions on the bench last night throttle positions are about the same, maybe just a touch less for hover. But the throttle response...MUCH improved. It's no warpquad...but it's a HUGE improvement.

Only downside...this was not a good upgrade from an efficiency standpoint :) I knew from playing with eCalc that despite my efficiency being theoretically higher I would probably have shorter flights instead of longer with these. And my first test pack bore that out - my beeper went off with almost 3 minutes left on my throttle biased timer :( And a post flight check of that pack did show it down to the 3.7 range. Though it was still flying better at 3.7 than my packs usually fly at 3.8.

Overall though it just feels so much more reliable, locked in and stable it's a joy to fly. Maybe with the extra power I can hoist dual packs for more time....may have to make up a parallel cable to test...but the two zippy packs are the only two "matched" packs I have right now and they're not all that matched anymore. Well, I do have the two zippy 1500 compacts...those could make a nice 3000 pack that's a good size/weight compromise.

Girls are about to head to choir rehearsal....time to load up for the park and some real testing since the winds are non-existent today!
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
And as I'm loading up to hit the field what do I find....two packs of 3.5 bullets. I knew I had more somewhere.

Oh - also. I'm slightly optimistic that I'll see somewhat better flight times on my tests at the park. The pack I used for my first flight this morning was my worst "flight capable" pack. It's already got a red X on the end to warn me about it. I didn't want to risk a good pack on the first flight in case something went bad. That pack tends to drop voltage faster than any other - it's already regained back to 3.9 resting. It's just not a very good pack anymore.

With the two new nano-tech packs I'm hoping to at least be in the 7-8 minute window.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Well that did not go as planned. The ultra budget quad is no more. She liked her new motors so much she decided to repay me for them by running away.

Still trying to figure out what could have happened.

Got to the park and found someone flying a couple of aircore planes. So went over and introduced myself and started prepping the quad. I had tightened the collets again before leaving the house, but as tight as I could get them I wasn't convinced they had a great grip. I should have given them another attempt before that first flight. The other guy was excited to see it fly so once it was prepped I confirmed I had a telemetry link (since I was hoping to adjust some PID's with the new motors) then popped it up in the air to feel it out. Felt great! Even with the PID's I had been running it was snappy and responsive in all the ways I wanted it to be. Flew a circuit or two of the field and gave it some altitude. Went for a flip...and it felt like my rates were still to low for that. They were borderline for acro so I wasn't surprised. But as I was recovering a prop flew off. Nuts. Landed upside down thankfully in soft ground.

6 zip ties were the total loss. Props were fine. Few minutes later had it back together. But it wouldn't go back up. Gave it a once over and discovered that the power wire for the arduino had come loose. Reconnected that, gave it another quick once over...got it a bit in the air - and it felt great again. Took it back up. And suddenly it didn't want to come back down. Still had RF link as I was only getting the occasional slight blip from my TX not the full beeping I get when signal gets weak. But it wasn't responding to any of my inputs.

I have failsafe in the FC and in the RX but they're both less than brilliant. The RX is setup to drop PWM and PPM so the RC will go into it's failsafe. The FC's failesafe is just the stock MW failsafe which is little better than a semi-controlled crash - but at least it gets the quad down.

It just kept climbing - not a full throttle climb - just a stuck where it is just above hover and keep climbing climb. I was able to watch it for a long time...and it mostly stayed right above us. I was hopeful that the battery would fade quick (oh wait, this was one of my new nano-tech's.) and it would come back down. And it did come back down a bit...but was still maintaining altitude...and started drifting north - over the river. Watched it go a good long way north and lost it. Stood there staring at the sky trying to to believe it was gone. Then after a minute or two...it came back. It got pretty close, almost like it was coming in for a landing by me! I tried to regain control - but couldn't get a link. I had already tried dropping the RF link to force it into failsafe and bring it down when it started heading towards the river. But now it seemed my RF link wasn't going to reestablish even though it was easily within range.

Then it started heading west and gaining altitude again. It couldn't have had much left in the battery at that point...and when I lost it the last time it did seem to be loosing some altitude again. But it was a tiny tiny dot far off on the horizon at that point and it was hard to tell altitude.

It cleared the solar farm which was the only thing in that direction I was really worried about it possibly landing on. There's an RV park and a carpet factory off that way...but it appeared to have cleared the RV Park and the carpet factory is further south and it didn't seem to be drifting that way. The way it was headed is all undeveloped desert along the river, the river, and farmland. It's got my name, callsign,phone number and e-mail address on it so there's always a chance someone may find it and be a good Samaritan. But there's also always the chance that the battery could get angry and that could burn up the piece my contact info is on since it's also the battery tray.

I drove around trying to get a signal from the beacon...but as I learned after my FPV crash - if the battery goes to where the quad won't stay in the air...I probably won't have a beacon signal. And the area it drifted towards isn't very easy to get to. And it's such a big area it could be in I wouldn't know where to begin looking if I could get in there.

I actually have enough parts on hand I could hack something together out of the old Wii sensors, the adruino pro mini, the 24g motors and the microstar ESC's....but I know how it would fly and it's not much better than nothing to fly ;)

So despite FinalGlides best efforts I may have to take a break from multis for a few months after all. I really want to build another with what I've learned from this one. But we're hitting AC season so my RC budget is shrinking fast so it probably won't be until October that I can pull off a rebuild. But we'll see...I have a lot of parts on hand....
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
Sorry man. I gotta wonder what it is that causes these. The transmitter isnt transmitting so the receiver isnt receiving, shouldn't it fall out of the sky like a brick?
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
I'm really having a hard time figuring out what caused this one. I've tested the failsafe on the RX and confirmed that it drops PWM/PPM signals when the link is dropped. So when I shut off my TX that should have shut off the control signal. And the quad's failsafe has been tested on the bench but not actually in flight since it's basically an only semi-controlled crash. So I know that shutting off the TX should have triggered the failsafe.

The FC must have had some control as the quad still had stability. If the FC had locked it should have tumbled out of the air even if the ESC's locked on. My one thought had been that maybe the power to the FC came loose - but I can't see the quad staying as stable as it was without a FC if it was just ESC's locked on.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Just going over this loss again. Looking over google earth/maps to try and figure out where to begin a search. Distances out here are still deceiving to me and I'm doubting my observations as I look at the overheads again.


Here's an overhead view:
lost.jpg

The green blob is the area I had planned to be flying in. I really didn't plan on going very far at all today, just some playing around far enough for safety but close enough to recover the crashes easily since I was half expecting something to go wrong mechanically with the new motors. The lighter green dot is where we were standing when I took off.

The blue trace is what I remember seeing the flight do. There's a section missing to the north over the river where I lost visual with it. And it ends a bit before the area where I think I lost visual with it as it got less and less clear what it was doing as it got that far away.

The yellow line is from where I was standing when I lost visual and where I thought it looked like it was at the time I lost it. Though I keep questioning if it may have been further south now that I see things on the map. The red circle is the area my initial first guess puts it coming down in.

But seeing this on the map and measuring distances I'm now wondering if it really was as far west as I thought it was when I lost it. It may have actually been further north and not as far west. In which case there's a VERY good chance it went for a swim.

The corner in the park will be easy to search so I'll start there in the morning. The area on the north side of the river would be easy to search but is harder to get to so I'll save it for last, I also consider it the least likely area for it to have come down. I'll contact the RV Park to make sure it didn't land there. The area to the west of the RV Park will be hardest to access but is the area I most suspect it would have gone down in. That field is some kind of fieldgrass about waist high...if it landed there it probably didn't even break a prop....but would probably get "harvested" rather than rescued. But it should also be obvious where it is if it is in that field as I've crashed into similar fields before and they leave a big enough depression that you can spot them fairly easily.


One thought I had was maybe when the RX failsafe killed signal it dropped and AUX low and that triggered a condition. I know I had thought about setting up a potential failsafe that way - but looking at my last saved config (and I haven't messed with this setup in awhile) it appears AUX going low should result in everything going off leaving it in just basic acro mode. If it had locked in MID then it would be in angle mode. If it had locked high then it would be in GPS hold, alt hold, head lock, and GPS home all at the same time...which would probably not be good. But none of the failsafes were setup to fail high. The screen shot from here still reflects the settings I was using:
http://forum.flitetest.com/showthread.php?8795-DW-tricopter-V-2-5&p=98635&viewfull=1#post98635

I was in horizon at the time of the crash, AUX1 was high all the others were mid. I had tested AUX2 high for alt/pos hold since I had been tuning that lately and wondered how it worked on the new motors. But I wasn't using it at the time of the flyaway.

I'm thinking more and more it was a failure of my openLRS rx. It was on top so when the quad landed upside down from the prop coming off it landed right on the openLRS which is just held in place with a rubber band (still haven't figured out a better way) and a bit of 1/8" foam between it and the arduino for padding. Then another 1/8" of foam under the arduino. I gave the openLRS a once over but most of the bits worth checking aren't visible and nothing jumped out at me and it still responded to radio tests so I figured it was good...but maybe something had been damaged in the crash and came loose.

There had been a little bit of frame damage in the first crash which I had forgotten about in the "excitement" of the flyaway. The rear right top knuckle plate had cracked and the portion of the rear arm on that side was bent in slightly. The wood hadn't cracked yet...but it was no longer straight. It still seemed together enough I felt ok flying on it, I've flown this frame in much worse shape. But maybe it contributed some extra vibrations that threw something off...

I really hadn't expected this to become such a long distance flight. I really thought I had my bases covered and my failsafes configured so I couldn't have a flyaway. I had done everything I could think of to test it except a full TX off test which just seemed reckless.

Only thing that's making sense to me is the RX locking and sending the same inputs but even that seems highly unlikely.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Yeah. I'll be out there first thing tomorrow searching, if it didn't hit the river I've got a decent chance of finding it. If it did hit the river...well...I'm already resigned to it not coming back.

On the upside this gives me a chance to do a clean build of a budget quad from scratch with the knowledge I learned from this one.

I'm tempted to go with lower KV motors and a bigger frame - but after experiencing these motors this morning I'm pretty convinced this is the combo that fits my needs. With changes in tuning it can go from nimble and acrobatic to docile and strong enough to lift some decent FPV/video gear. Though lower KV motors with bigger props could potentially give me longer flights which would be a plus...I think this is the sweet spot for my needs.

And all day I've been taking inventory of my spares in my head....I do have enough parts I could have a quad flying by tomorrow morning. But it would be using the worn out 24g motors, the multistar 10a esc's, the original wii sensors, and the promini arduino. So I know I wouldn't be happy with it.

And hey, I met another local park flyer at least so that was nice. He's only got RTF stuff but was flying his aircores very well and is interested in scratch building. So it should be fun to meet up with him again.

Really hoping I'm wrong about how far it went and I'll be able to find it tomorrow....
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
In other good news I see that HK Blue ESC's are back in stock I'm only one of those shy of a full set....Won't be able to spring for another set of angels until mid-June but I could have new ESC's ready to go.

The big question is...do I want to pick up another arduino mega and an IMU board...or just bite the bullett and get a purpose built FC. I really do want to try the Naze...but I hate to limit myself to the acro and can't justify the cost of the full...

Good time I've got time to think about this.

Rest of May I'll be focused on getting my versas back in the air and putting my FPV gear on them for now. Ultra Budget Quad V2 will be happening even if I find the original when I go on my little hike tomorrow morning.
 

FinalGlideAus

terrorizing squirrels
1200-1400kv range is great for your sized quad. Even with FPV gear you should expect around 10 minutes basic FPV flying and with it off you have a very capable acro quad with around the same flying time.
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
My Knuckle I quad is running the Suppo 1450s and 8045 rotors. I can do flips and rolls in my backyard with a KK2, lift camera gear and I get 6-10 minutes of flight on a 2200mah lipo depending on how hard I fly it. I have flown a 3000mah and an 1800mah both of which give me different options and flight characteristics.

It's the best 'all round' build I know and VERY similar to your UBQ.
 
Last edited:

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
I hope you find it today in a tree in the parking lot north of the river with no damage and within easy reach.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Spent an hour searching. But temps already hitting 90 and a snake 2" around put a stop to my search.


quad_search.jpg

The area is far denser than I originally expected. I've gone down then main trail in there many times and it all just looked like what I knew it was - manmade "wild". The whole area is irrigated and has been meticulously planted to create some team's view of what a perfect natural stretch of Colorado river wetlands should be. So from the main trail it looks like a big open loosely planted area - much as it appears on google maps and earth. In reality...about 15' from the trail that changes. And there's a lot more area back there than I realized. Was actually a really nice hike, LOTS of wildlife (doves, quail, jackrabbits, all kinds of bugs, snakes, and pretty sure something bigger than a jackrabbit was out there as well but not showing itself.)

The general scrub was taller than me and covers the entire area. Even if I had spotted the quad - getting to it would have required machetes and protective clothing that I wouldn't want to have to wear on a 100 degree day like today.

Having gone back out and reviewed where it left:
10343993_10152012131946805_1686478994_o.jpg

Just to the left of the mountain but the right of the big tree is the carpet plant which is one of the few things out that way I wouldn't want to land in/on. Immediately behind the dark piles of dirt is a small demonstration "solar garden" that I wouldn't want to interfere with either. Those were my two main concerns. The last time I saw the quad it was almost directly over the little "no parking" sign about twice the height of the tree in line under it. Then it got too small to see. Couldn't tell anymore if it was getting lower or further from me...but I suspect lower as it did seem to be getting lower when it cam back towards me before heading west.
It had been tracking straight from me through that sign for some time when I lost it.

Here's some photospheres of the area I searched:
https://plus.google.com/118393350380853916534/posts/AjYMMsD9UmQ

I really get the feeling it's in the area just east of the trailer park that I circled but couldn't get into. Something about that area just "felt right" to me while searching, but it was REALLY dense and I couldn't get in there. And reviewing google maps again and drawing sight lines and estimating how high it probably was I'm thinking that area looks really good for it to have landed in.

I'm also starting to form a hypothesis for what happened...but without the quad it's hard to test the theory. I think what happened was the PPM line from the RX to the FC was damaged and I didn't notice it then failed. I think the failsafe in the quad did activate...but was tuned for the 24g motors and rather than loose altitude it gained. The other guy thought it looked like it had gone full throttle...but it wasn't even raising as fast as full throttle on the 24g's would have done.


I'll probably go with the same motors on the rebuild. The big expense is the new motors, only need one more Blue ESC (or maybe just a crystal for the one I have.). I could have something back in the air for <$80. But I'm still in warm water for buying these motors so I can't just turn around and buy new ones for a few weeks. We've got a camping trip in Yosemite later this month and until that's over all hobby funds are frozen.

So I'm going to go build a blunt nose versa, put my pro-mini and original wii sensors on it in airplane mode, put my FPV cam and VTX on it, and see if I can't get it in the air by this evening. Got most of the wiring ready last night...just need to dig in on some foam board again.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
For those who were sad to hear I lost my quad but glad to hear this thread would finally stop growing....bad news.

Because I just got a phone call with some good news! Someone found the budget quad!

Apparently it did make it to the RV park where it got stuck in a tree. We're having some NASTY winds today (30mph sustained 40mph+ gusts) and they knocked it down. He didn't know what to make of it at first but saw my name and info on it so he gave me a call. He says it looks like something is missing from the top of it...but I suspect that's just because of my exposed wiring :D

He's excited to hear more details from me about it and I'm excited to get it back. Going to swing by on my lunch break and see what kind of condition it's in!

Of course I've been keeping busy the past few days otherwise:
10343905_10152014852856805_229763983_o.jpg

That would be a blunt nose versa with "rejected" quad parts (the original wii sensors and the arduino pro mini) along with my FPV gear. It's all working and I'm excited to see how MW does on fixed wing. Still need to decide where I want to mount everything and then adjust any wire lengths necessary to make it happen...but it's basically working. One thing I found interesting is that you don't do any mixing in the TX for a flying wing with MW. You need raw aileron/elevator signals so in pass-through mode the MW acts as a dumb delta mixer. But I've also confirmed that both angle and horizon modes are working. Still have an issue with the mix in my TX though and don't have my 3 pos switch working quite right so I can only switch between pass-through and horizon right now - but that should be all I need. Oh yeah, also want to wire up a battery voltage wire for the OSD.

Going to be hard to keep focused on finishing with my quad coming home though :) Just wondering how much repair it will need...and if I'll be able to figure out what caused the flyaway once I have the remains in my hands.
 

Foam Addict

Squirrel member
That's great Jhitesma! Please post pics of the damage.(or hopefully lack thereof.)

Nice BNV, I hope you still know how to fly fixed wing.:p