A Rant over MotionRC

Konrad

Posting Elsewhere
I'm not getting in to arguments, ....
Why not? You and others, myself included, might learn a thing or two and save a buck or two. :eek:

Besides it's actually fun! I actually like to bring out the fallacies in my and other's thought processes.

All the best,
Konrad
 
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RCMAN

New member
Motion Rc is just a retailer like amazon or Hobby King, its not their fault a product sucks. I have purchased a few planes from them and like any purchase I research reviews, videos and all before I buy, its buyer beware out there. A lot of thier stuff is advanced, so you got to be careful before you buy something from them, because they dont care what you buy, they just sell it, they dont make it.
 

Konrad

Posting Elsewhere
Thats another issue. Do you (anybody) as a customer put the onus on the vendor/retailer or is it solely the responsibility of the OEM to address safety and quality issue?

My point and concern is that MotionRC has no concern to drive improvements in the product. I point to the response I got from MotionRC (High Lighted in Blue in the first post). It is what I see as a total lack of concern for their customer that is driving this thread. And MotionRC blatant lies about the customer issue most of us have with the products they sell.

To my way of thinking it is incumbent of any organization that makes a profit from any endeavor (sales or manufacturing) to be held accountable by the customer(s). Amazon's and others attempt to disassociate its self from this covenant with the customer is having disastrous consequences for all, both the OEM and the customer.

In the case of MotionRC they claim to be deeply imbedded with the OEM Freewing in the design of the products. And as they are the sole distributor of the Freewing line (and others) they have the lions share of responsibility to address concerns we the customers have with quality and safety of the Freewing brand.

Buyer beware, but corporation be fearful of the informed buyer!

All the best,
Konrad
 

makattack

Winter is coming
Moderator
Mentor
I find this thread interesting. When I first got into the hobby, I came from a consumer frame-of-mind that I think didn't work. I expected it was like going to a {Insert name of large box consumer electronics store} and buying a multirotor off the shelf then charging the battery and putting it up in the air for some relaxing flights.

Turned out it wasn't quite like that.

I found that buying hobby grade stuff is more like my experiences in the work industry where we have to buy, say 10 components, and expect that maybe 5 will work to our specifications and the other 5 are not, but can be fine for development purposes. We have to test each and every component ourselves with the assumption that any testing the OEM did wasn't sufficient for our purposes.

While I think the hobby is getting to the consumer level standards, particularly in the multirotor realm, I don't think the fixed wing part of this hobby is nearly there... yet. Some of those advances are coming, but making products consumer friendly sort of assumes a very low common denominator for skill levels and experience.

Even now, when I stock up on RC components for builds, etc, if I need 4 servos, I buy 8. I've experienced first-hand servos that don't work out of the box. I tend to buy the cheap ones, so I know what I'm risking and taking the gamble with that just to be able to use $2-3 servos.
 
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F106DeltaDart

Elite member
While I think the hobby is getting to the consumer level standards, particularly in the multirotor realm, I don't think the fixed wing part of this hobby is nearly there... yet. Some of those advances are coming, but making products consumer friendly sort of assumes a very low common denominator for skill levels and experience.

Even now, when I stock up on RC components for builds, etc, if I need 4 servos, I buy 8. I've experienced first-hand servos that don't work out of the box. I tend to buy the cheap ones, so I know what I'm risking and taking the gamble with that just to be able to use $2-3 servos.

There has always been a difference at the consumer and hobby level though. I would would the consumer and hobby grades to buying a franklin mint diecast airplane model (pre-finished) or buying a plastic model kit. As with any hobby, there is an expectation that the consumer has enough knowledge and skills to finish the project. The multi-rotor is more akin to the prefinished model, especially if you use something like DJI as an example. You just pull it out of the box and go.

It isn't that much different in Fixed wing and heli markets, or in the mini quad market. You as a consumer are assumed to have the knowledge base to check that everything is working as it should, and to research the aircraft before you fly. That you will do meticulous pre flight checks, and take your time getting your control settings dialed in as required. If you find something, like a dead component (servo, ESC, retract), it is the responsibility of the seller to replace it. And, MotionRC does that quickly and reliably.

From a standpoint of quality, it is the nature of hobby grade components that quality is never perfect. We are a tiny piece of the market, and things have to be produced quickly and affordably to sell. Let's say a manufacturer revamps their servo quality checks. Like most RC companies, they probably do a cursory check to make sure the servo moves, then install it. Let's say that is changed so that each servo undergoes 15 minutes of continuous cycles and the speed/throw tolerances are measured before and after. You have now easily quadrupled your time, and you produce less . Now cost is increased, and instead of $6/servo, you might be looking at $20/servo. Multiply that times 9-12 servos, on a big warbird, and you've ballooned your cost by $140ish. Now that is priced so high, it doesn't sell well or isn't competitive with other models. And, you haven't gained much either. Instead of 95% of servos being fine (basic check), you've brought it down to 99.9%. Or you could just eat the cost of any failed components, and sell at a competitive price, which is what Motion does. For the record, I've had 10+ airplanes (large jets/warbirds) and I've had 1 servo and one retract that were bad, and they were promptly replaced. That's not a bad record over ~100ish servos. As with anything there has to be a balance between cost and quality to make the business feasible.

As for the manuals again, they are written by the manufacturers at whatever rates their test pilot likes. If he likes his Mirage to roll like a drill bit, then that's what ends up in the manual. When Motion works with them on design, they provide feedback on the design, and send it back to the manufacturer to revise. The manufacturer completes these revisions, and Motion re-evalutes it. The design is done by them, with guidance from Motion. The manufacturer still produces their own documentation, and that's what goes in the box. At least the Motion reps on other forums such as RCG have been kind enough to post the rates/cg that they preferred flying at as well for reference.
 

Konrad

Posting Elsewhere
In my industry, aviation (souls in harms way), this would be intolerable!

Now one does need to do a lot of engineering if one is trying to design a system from "off the shel"f components. Communication protocol and power requirements are just some of the issue one needs to look at. This is why component data sheet are so important. To allow the sale of servos or other components without this data bordering on criminal!

At the fix wing level we have had quality hobby/consumer products for most of the time I've been involved (1968-to now). Now the bottom end of the market has always been a crap shoot. So there has been no way that a $3 servo can compare to a $79 that is a given.

But to have a vendor bold face lie to you about the product is unacceptable in any industry, be it a hobby or industrial!

All the best,
Konrad
 

F106DeltaDart

Elite member
In my industry, aviation (souls in harms way), this would be intolerable!
In full scale, or commercial operations absolutely!! No question about that. However, it's a different story for your average RC models. If you are an AMA member, or a good cautious pilot, you aren't flying over people in the first place, because you have to be aware that a failure could occur, be it equipment, or (more often) a dumb-thumb pilot moment. At any day at your average AMA club, there is generally a crash. That's why we have a safety code that prevents flying over or close to people. I mean, seriously, most of us here have built and flown crazy contraptions out of foamboard and hot glue with a questionable margin of safety. It's all part of the hobby! Even just out of foamboard and glue, we can get planes like the NN P-39 to 100 mph, with the right power system. And that's probably just with some HXT-900s on the control surfaces anyways. You have to keep safety in mind for sure, but you also have to be willing to take some risk for fun's sake, as long as it is appropriately mitigated.
 

Konrad

Posting Elsewhere
..
As for the manuals again, they are written by the manufacturers at whatever rates their test pilot likes. If he likes his Mirage to roll like a drill bit, then that's what ends up in the manual. When Motion works with them on design, they provide feedback on the design, and send it back to the manufacturer to revise. The manufacturer completes these revisions, and Motion re-evalutes it. The design is done by them, with guidance from Motion. The manufacturer still produces their own documentation, and that's what goes in the box. At least the Motion reps on other forums such as RCG have been kind enough to post the rates/cg that they preferred flying at as well for reference.
I'm old school in thinking I should not need to invest hours of time finding corrections to the OEM supplied documents. Particularly product that are sold as plug and play that can be assembled in less than 2 hours.

The initial set up in the manual should be aimed at giving the pilot a fighting chance at a successful maiden flight! Not to prove that the factory test pilots have lightening fast reflexes! I know you and I don't keep the initial setting after the maiden. We as experienced pilot adjust the model to our own style of flying. But I would never suggest that a pilot use my end settings as a starting point. I've even purchased multiple copies of a model and would not use my own end setting for my own maidens!

I have no reason to think that MotionRC actually offers feedback to the OEM. I'd like to see an OEM state that they receive product feedback from MotionRC.

MotionRC needs to focus on the needs of the customer! My posting of Wayne's response clearly show otherwise

MotionRC should have the corrections found by their own flight testing and that of their customer post (Linked) on the sale page. I should not have to dig through hours of mutual admiration forums by those that are not qualified to determine what are the safe limits for control. If, as MotionRC knew by "Pilot Ryan's" screams, that there is an issue it should be stated on the sales page. But to have Wayne and Martin or MotionRC lie to the customer as to the issues is cowardly!

Another lie is that MotionRC posts customer review in an unedited form (I need to find my correspondents with MotionRC on this). I've submitted my reviews of many product that I have purchased only to have then not published. Those that I gave two stars or less were not posted. The excuse was that my description of the issues were too technical for the review. You can see some of my 3+ star reviews with my sweetened comments about the short coming of those products. But those with a "Do Not Buy" 2 star rating are not to be found on the MotionRC's web site. So the customer reviews at MotionRC really are of little value in try to find out the true nature of the product before purchase.

For that you will need to come to Flite-Test where there is no interference from advertisers getting to the truth about the vendor or the product he sells.

Most of MotionRC's posted reviews are on how fast MotionRC emptied their PayPal account. I really have little concern with how fast MotionRC is with the turn around time of orders.

Again you will have noticed that I don't say XXX is junk and runaway! I try to point out the issue in excruciating detail. And at the same time offer workarounds. I fail to see how bringing the short comings of a product and vendor should put so many folks on the defensive. I'm not knocking, assaulting or even ranting about your (the customer) decision in buying a product.

Here in this thread I'm trying to showing where the issues are with the product and vendor so that future customers are well armed with the truth, free from MotionRC's lies!

Now if one finds were I've misrepresented the truth, I'm happy to learn where I've been in error. But be willing to document your position. But to say others are worse in not a valid excuse for poor corporate integrity

All the best,
Konrad
 

Konrad

Posting Elsewhere
In full scale, or commercial operations absolutely!! No question about that. However, it's a different story for your average RC models. If you are an AMA member, or a good cautious pilot, you aren't flying over people in the first place, because you have to be aware that a failure could occur, be it equipment, or (more often) a dumb-thumb pilot moment. At any day at your average AMA club, there is generally a crash. That's why we have a safety code that prevents flying over or close to people. I mean, seriously, most of us here have built and flown crazy contraptions out of foamboard and hot glue with a questionable margin of safety. It's all part of the hobby! Even just out of foamboard and glue, we can get planes like the NN P-39 to 100 mph, with the right power system. And that's probably just with some HXT-900s on the control surfaces anyways. You have to keep safety in mind for sure, but you also have to be willing to take some risk for fun's sake, as long as it is appropriately mitigated.
Here we have a real difference as to what responsibility is. I've seen 2 fatalities at the flying field in the 40 or so years I've been flying models. I'd hate to be the club officer having to go to the newly widowed mother telling her that her loved one and support system was killed by a toy airplane!


The AMA safety code is just the first layer in the safety net. Holding the firms that sell our toys morally and financially accountable is just as critical to safety, if not more so!

MotionRC has no moral leg to stand on denying that there are issue with the control throw of the Freewing products they sell.
 
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Konrad

Posting Elsewhere
As Promised, here is part of the exchange I had with MotionRC with regard to my review, and safety issues with the Freewing Mirage 2000C-5. The actual technical data I submitted can be found in the link


On Sep 27, 2016, at 1:41 PM, Motion RC Support support@motionrc.com> wrote:

Konrad,

This plane has been sold for quite awhile now with no issues as being over sensitive. It is incumbent upon all RC Fliers who purchase this plane to set it up to their personal liking and as such this plane is rated for Experts so if an individual purchased it and they have over estimated their abilities then they may experience some difficulty flying it. As far as the review is concerned we do post negative reviews frequently however due to the length and data included in yours they have elected not to post it in it's current state as we have not verified that your data is accurate.

Wayne

Your Motion RC Team

We hope this response has sufficiently answered your questions. If not, please do not send another email. Instead, reply to this email or login to your account for a complete archive of all your support requests and responses.


Reopened by SYSTEM 09/27/2016 4:20 PM




Konrad Dudek posted 09/29/2016 11:37 AM


Wayne,

I'm coming near the end of my patients with this review issue. http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=21197.0

I wrote the review for MotionRC out of concern for safety. In the 40 years of RC flying I have witnessed 2 fatalities. The common issue with both events was lack of control. In just about every review of this model in which the reviewer actually has flown (not unboxing reviews) the model, there had been mention of over reactive ailerons.

Now those of us that are "expert" (whatever that means in this context) saw the issue and addressed it prior to making the maiden flights. But a customer without the years of experience with delta wings might not be so informed.

I don't think anybody really is concerned with the loss of $200 worth of foam. But it is the loss of control and the subsequent risk to the life of the customer and innocent bystanders that is the real concern.

Please be true to MotionRC commitment to publish less than flattering reviews, and publish my review. The length and data of the review has never been a criteria in the past nor has this been stated as a concern in the posting rules. The data is mine and mine alone. My opinion of the product is no more or less valid that those of other reviewers. I just try to offer solutions that the customer might encounter.

As to the corrections needed in the manual please think of this as a safety issue and not as a product liability issue. Think of the children standing next to his dad as plane crashes in to them. Please, Please do the right thing and correct the manual. With what data I'm not saying just get the aileron motion in line with what an experienced pilot would use for a maiden flight of a delta wing. After the maiden the pilot can adjust the throws to meet his preference for roll rate. I do offer my control throws and balance point as a just one data point in deriving the correct control throws for a maiden.

"Verify that your data is accurate." Now that was precious!!!
 
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makattack

Winter is coming
Moderator
Mentor
In my industry, aviation (souls in harms way), this would be intolerable!

Now one does need to do a lot of engineering if one is trying to design a system from "off the shel"f components. Communication protocol and power requirements are just some of the issue one needs to look at. This is why component data sheet are so important. To allow the sale of servos or other components without this data bordering on criminal!

At the fix wing level we have had quality hobby/consumer products for most of the time I've been involved (1968-to now). Now the bottom end of the market has always been a crap shoot. So there has been no way that a $3 servo can compare to a $79 that is a given.

But to have a vendor bold face lie to you about the product is unacceptable in any industry, be it a hobby or industrial!

All the best,
Konrad

Agreed. I actually had a job very early in my career in a aerospace R&D not-for-profit, and actually saw how some of this reliability is implemented. Let's say we're building a digital guidance system from scratch. The RAM chips bought from COTS vendors are put through a vigorous internal testing regime involving multiple phases and steps in the development or production process from individual component testing to increasingly complex system integration tests. That and they're also combined with redundant designs to take into account the possibility of failures.

Point taken though, that buying a RTF or ARF is not the same as buying individual components and building a system up with them.

I think ultimately, it's a delicate balance. Do you overwhelm users with a stack of technical datasheets that go down into the details of PWM pulse widths, amplitude, and frequency or do you try to make it all accessible with the "less is more" idea?

Again, going back to the industrial work vs consumer focused idea, if I were at work, I would expect to read a tech datasheet on an item I was using to accomplish my mission. I would want to know every little detail and expect that I will just have to figure it out for the most part, unless we're paying someone to help us out. As a consumer, I wouldn't expect that and would just simply expect that "it just works."

Personally, I find myself somewhere in between. I'm a type of person who wants to know how something works in addition to knowing that it's working properly. When I bought my first car, I read the car manual and thought it was just a lot of fluff, and realized what I was really looking for was the service manuals. I wanted to know the proper torque values for all the wheel lugs, oil filter, etc. I wanted to know what was behind the "check engine light" if it ever came on.

I think that's ultimately the challenge. How does a manufacturer/reseller make everyone happy? I work exclusively in software now, and mostly on the security and identity side. It's a constant, battle -- if you will, or challenge to balance between good security vs good accessibility/usability. I think it's the same for these toy airplanes we buy.

One way a manufacturer can make them more consumer friendly, and we see some OEM's doing this, is to add in complex and sophisticated flight controllers with multiple flight modes and flight envelope limiting features including GPS assisted geo-fencing. Is that what we really want?
 

Konrad

Posting Elsewhere
...
One way a manufacturer can make them more consumer friendly, and we see some OEM's doing this, is to add in complex and sophisticated flight controllers with multiple flight modes and flight envelope limiting features including GPS assisted geo-fencing. Is that what we really want?
That's another segment of the hobby all together autonomous models.

My concern is with disreputable firms selling and misrepresenting their products and services. A lot of folk here have been making references to "FOAM ARFs" and their Low Cost as justification for firms like MotionRC selling junk with improper documentation. MY concern along with safety is that the regulatory bodies (local municipalities and even the FAA) will not make a distinction between a cheap foam ARF or a "REAL" scale model.
We saw what the FAA tried to do with relabeling models as Drones!!

So to keep the hobby you and I love viable we must address threats to its very existence in check. I see disreputable firms as one of the greatest threats to this hobby, short of that posed by ignorant and over zealous regulators . That is why I posted this thread.

All the best,
Konrad
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
Konrad,
In reference to your mentioning that it is inferred that you are the sole person having the issue I refer to a similar "story" given to customers by one of my previous employers. At the time I was stuck "on the coal face" and the factory was not providing any usable feedback or solution to the issues I faced.

As I was also in the position of level 3 training officer I spoke with other outlets, (off the record), and found that the problem we faced was universal and not attributable to something that we were doing wrong. After researching the issue and engineering a "Fix" to the issue which I distributed via my own network the factory engineers contacted me, inquired as to the engineering principles behind my "fix", and they re-engineered my work and incorporated it as an improvement in the product.

Rather than receiving any reward I was dismissed because I went outside of the established processes to get a problem fixed which the accepted processes refused to acknowledge. I lost my job for helping my fellow employees and our customers.

With that sort of business model rampant in Western businesses it is no surprise that no one wishes to acknowledge the issue you raised,

Just a fact of life and human nature! Learn from the experience, move on, and try hard to never repeat the experience!

Have fun ALWAYS!
 

makattack

Winter is coming
Moderator
Mentor
Rather than receiving any reward I was dismissed because I went outside of the established processes to get a problem fixed which the accepted processes refused to acknowledge. I lost my job for helping my fellow employees and our customers.

With that sort of business model rampant in Western businesses it is no surprise that no one wishes to acknowledge the issue you raised,

Just a fact of life and human nature! Learn from the experience, move on, and try hard to never repeat the experience!

Have fun ALWAYS!

That's terrible! I think there's a danger with applying a broad-stroke brush based on an anecdotal experience. It's a danger I often take though, so ehh... what's my point? None really. I guess I just appreciate this discussion. Here's another anecdotal experience I had. In another job, back when I was a young whipper snapper and wasn't all jaded by the harsh course of time and experience, I found myself in a situation where a co-worker was experiencing a hardware issue on a computer they depended upon for their development work. Since my personal component/area of responsibility was also dependent upon her completing her component in a timely manner, I figured it was also in my best interest to help where I can. After diagnosing the problem as a failed hard drive. This was around the mid 90's (93-94) and I think most HDD's were IDE at the time, but because this was a defense contractor with the US Government as the primary customer, most of our stuff was fairly well dated, because of the glacial rate of change in IT stuff back then with public sector work. The computer had a ST506 style HDD interface and those were basically dinosaurs that were hard to get replacement parts for. Since I am frugal (read: cheap) I have a lot of spare equipment (hoarder) and knew I had an unused 20MB ST506 5.25" HDD lying around (that weighed probably 10 lbs). I brought it in, installed it, and got my co-worker started again. Of course, this also meant I donated my HDD to the company, because we were doing defence work, they slapped a security sticker onto it, put it into the classified materials handling system, and told me I would never see it again if I needed it back. I ended up getting an award from my company for it (fancy lucite trophy that was actually a much better paperweight than my donated HDD) with a bit of spending cash (wouldn't have been able to buy much more than a UMX BNF these days) and some cake.

SO... it's not always the case that "creative" approaches are punished in the western commercial world.

Back on topic though, I do feel like companies have gotten overly defensive about either the products they sell or manufacture. What ever happened to the "the customer is always right" sort of "golden rule?" I know that statement is usually cynically post-fixed with "even if they aren't" in all the companies I've been in where that was the golden rule, but that's also human nature.

I do feel that often times, people should just bite their tongue, swallow their pride, and admit defeat because ultimately, that would lead to happier customers.
 

Konrad

Posting Elsewhere
Konrad,
In reference to your mentioning that it is inferred that you are the sole person having the issue I refer to a similar "story" given to customers by one of my previous employers. At the time I was stuck "on the coal face" and the factory was not providing any usable feedback or solution to the issues I faced.

As I was also in the position of level 3 training officer I spoke with other outlets, (off the record), and found that the problem we faced was universal and not attributable to something that we were doing wrong. After researching the issue and engineering a "Fix" to the issue which I distributed via my own network the factory engineers contacted me, inquired as to the engineering principles behind my "fix", and they re-engineered my work and incorporated it as an improvement in the product.

Rather than receiving any reward I was dismissed because I went outside of the established processes to get a problem fixed which the accepted processes refused to acknowledge. I lost my job for helping my fellow employees and our customers.

With that sort of business model rampant in Western businesses it is no surprise that no one wishes to acknowledge the issue you raised,

Just a fact of life and human nature! Learn from the experience, move on, and try hard to never repeat the experience!

Have fun ALWAYS!
I too have been "FIRED" for doing the right thing the wrong way.
As a machinist I was asked to make a High Pressure Compressor Housing, and told that if this one fails inspection that the work was going to be out sourced. So I set up and inspected the machine and tooling to perfection. I noticed a gross error in the tooling and made a quick fix.

The next day I was called into the inspection office with 20 engineers and project managers. The inspection manager said the housing was perfect (all dimensions nominal). He asked how I did it. I said I found an issue with the tooling and corrected it. The fact that I didn't get engineering's approval (no time) to address the tooling issue was a gross violation of the F.A.A. approved manufacturing program (PMA). So I was fired on the way back to my grinder. I was hired in the next hour to a manufacturing engineer post. This sleight of hand kept the unions happy, in that management wasn't showing favoritism and the F.A.A. happy as management was demonstrating their commitment to the approved maintenance program.

I've never been afraid to do the right thing. I like to do the right thing particularly if the wrong thing is the established norm. I'm just that kind of instigator of change!

All the best,
Konrad

*Parts Manufacturing Authority (PMA)
 
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Konrad

Posting Elsewhere
makattack,
I fear that customers often are reluctant to tick off the supplier, for fear of retribution. For example I've been trying behind the scenes to get MotionRC to correct the gross safety issues in their products. I was rewarded, by them attempting to obsolete my fleet of Freewing models worth about $3k (at retail prices). They did this by their refusal to sell me any product (parts) for the Freewing brand that they have exclusive North American rights to market.

So while doing the right thing is fun (I love to ruffle managements feathers) there often is a cost. In the end it is costing MotionRC the $5 in shipping charges.

All the best,
Konrad


Edit: to correct spelling of MotioRC to MotionRC.

There is no such thing as bad press, just make sure they spell your name correctly!
 
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Gazoo

Well-known member
I'm trying to understand the issue so please don't be upset with me.

Issue: MotionRC says to set the control throws and expo to a specific setting. You (and others) think that the settings are too aggressive. They will not admit that the settings are too aggressive.

Again, I'm not trying to make anyone upset with me, I am just trying to understand.
 

Konrad

Posting Elsewhere
That is one take on it. The issue is that they refuse to correct known issues with the product and lie to you the end customer about any issues.

I've been focusing on the control side. I've pointed out that it isn't just I that have the issues, but many, even their own test pilots. I've tried to show (document) that MotionRC has bold faced lied to me in writing about keeping data and not being aware of any other customer issues.

I also tried to show that They (MotionRC) are again lying to you and me when they claim that that post all reviews positive and negative to help you select the best product for your application.

Please reread the posts in detail and let me know what I need to say to bring this into clearer focus.

This isn't just about ones value in dollars, but one of safety controllability of the model on the maiden flights.

All the best, And thank you for asking the question,


P.S.
Another way to look at this thread is that it is concerned with corporate credibility. Mainly MotionRC's but any firm trying to "earn" rather than steal your dollar with out right (blatant) lies
 
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F106DeltaDart

Elite member
I'm trying to understand the issue so please don't be upset with me.

Issue: MotionRC says to set the control throws and expo to a specific setting. You (and others) think that the settings are too aggressive. They will not admit that the settings are too aggressive.

Again, I'm not trying to make anyone upset with me, I am just trying to understand.

That seems to be more or less the extent of it to me..

Konrad, I'm not sure how many companies/retailers you have bought foam arfs/PNPs from. If you went directly from balsa kits, where the plans or design was made/tested/sold by the same person, perhaps this is a terrifying issue to you. But, for me, I've been flying foam airplanes from all kinds of retailers for a while, and I still think that incorrect throws are the LEAST thing to be concerned about. It's been a regular practice to foam deliver models (warbirds and EDFs in particular) that weren't airworthy without extensive rework, up the until a few years ago, with horizon hobby being the exception. As I've said before, there were terrible electronics, lack of proper structure, and either no or horribly incorrect CGs specified. A even then, some had absolutely terrible flight characteristics. It still continues with some models today, like the Banana hobby twin 70mm SU-50. To my knowledge, no one has managed (modded or otherwise) to keep one flying for more than 10 flights..

When Motion came around, they worked with the big manufacturers (Freewing and FMS and now several more), to rengineer their models. We started getting robust retracts, shock struts, reliability, solid construction, better scale appearance, and good stock power. And, if anything on the aircraft failed or didn't meet expectations due to a manufacturer defect, they replaced at no charge. This was unheard of, and has set a new precedent for many of the other foam retailers. This is why they have great reviews from most flyers, why I purchase their products. While incorrect throws is an issue, it pales in comparison to ESCs bursting into flame, wings snapping off, exploding edf fans, and retracts that breaking on even silky smooth landings...

On a related note, I just got my 1700mm Freewing twin 80mm A-10 in the mail today and I am very much looking forward to flying it. Will post a review after I have flown it.
 

Konrad

Posting Elsewhere
DD,
Please do post a detailed review of your experience with A-10, preferably after the newness wears off.

I too loved what I saw from the early days of MotionRC. See my Dynam Meteor thread. A firm that said point blank that the product wasn't the best since sliced bread had to get my Patronage. And true to MotionRC RED notice on their Dynam sales page the Meteor was a distant second to the comparable products on the market, the Habu. But at half the price it was a great value as MotionRC stated it would be.

I think this link is still viable
http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=21834.0

And you are correct in that I came down to foam from high performance models. Mainly glass and carbon FAI ship (gliders and racers).

My first real exposure to the modern EPO foam model was the Horizon Splendor and Carbon Yak 54 (the red and gold one). These were are fantastic sport modes, truly eye opening to see what properly engineered EPO looks like. I'm also enamored with the engineering from Multiplex and their EPO Gliders. The Cularis and Heron While not in the same class as the glass slipper they aren't as doggy as I first feared.
http://www.hippocketaeronautics.com/hpa_forum/index.php?topic=21046.0

Unlike Freewing Horizon as come out with addendum to issues very fast. The Yak had an improper location listed for the CofG. They even came out with a structural addendum for the Radian XL with weeks of it release.
http://www.e-fliterc.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=EFL10550#quickSupport
https://www.hobbysquawk.com/forum/rc-airplanes/gliders/44193-2-6-meter-class-foamy-gliders

So yes I'm well aware of what is out there in the way of the sport EPO models.

My issue is with Freewing/MotionRC total lack of concern and credibility both with regard to the product itself but and many even more to the point the character of the company. To flat lie the to customers about the control issue is beyond the pale. Don't take my word for it look it up on their own Forum (Hobby Squawk). And again lie about the review process destroys all credibility they had with that early Dynam notice. (Really they need to verify my data! Since when do the negative review need to vetted by the OEM!)

Are my links and posts with my conversation with the lying management of MotionRC not posting?

All the best,
Konrad
 
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