Legal issues: liability with manufacturers in the hobby space

[makattack]

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=2679cfd5-7517-449f-831c-80e95d9a15f9

Align (popular heli manufacturer) can be sued according to the Colorado Court of Appeals. I guess this is from a user who bought it from Horizon Hobby.

 

[abieex]

Sounds to me like the end user was most probably not using basic safety measures regarding proximity to the spinning blades but most of us don't. We are a law suit happy country so this doesn't remotely surprise me. My guess is that this suit will will bring more attention to an already troubled portion of our hobby.

 

[razor02097]

So the main rotor head malfunctioned? Was this before or after he crashed it into the ground?

abieex the attention is already there. Everyone from Mythbusters to David Windestål have shown videos of props of many sizes slicing up various things proving they are dangerous if you're negligent. The problem is people DON'T respect these models and still treat them like toys. I still have a scar on my fingertip from the days when I flew glow. I tried to start a plane by hand and the prop kicked back to say hello to my finger tip. I was lucky...and I didn't do that again. This was back before the days of flite test or youtube to show you how dangerous a prop can be. Because I learned a valuable lesson I also teach others to stay away from a spinning prop.

 

[rockyboy]

So the main rotor head malfunctioned? Was this before or after he crashed it into the ground?

abieex the attention is already there. Everyone from Mythbusters to David Windestål have shown videos of props of many sizes slicing up various things proving they are dangerous if you're negligent. The problem is people DON'T respect these models and still treat them like toys. I still have a scar on my fingertip from the days when I flew glow. I tried to start a plane by hand and the prop kicked back to say hello to my finger tip. I was lucky...and I didn't do that again. This was back before the days of flite test or youtube to show you how dangerous a prop can be. Because I learned a valuable lesson I also teach others to stay away from a spinning prop.

Absolutely.

Chicken sticks aren't just for chickens. They are for anyone who likes having multiple fingers.

 

[abieex]

I also had some contact with a wooden prop on a Fox combat 35 back in my u control days. Many of us learned the hard way. I have much respect for spinning props of any size and the plastic ones are even more sharp!

 

[makattack]

Yeah, I'm just sort of saddened by the litigious nature of society these days. Granted, this could have been a brand new blade grip/rotor head that failed, but when I test with spinning blades, I use personal protective gear (leather gloves, eye protection, etc) and try to ensure nothing critical is in the likely path of destruction. I don't know the exact circumstances of this unfortunate accident, as the appeals text doesn't go into detail, but I wonder if I could see similar success with a suit if say, my Xacto knife rolled off my table, and fell blade first onto my barefoot. Could I sue Xacto for making a blade holder that is cylindrical and can roll off a table, turning it into a projectile?

 

[razor02097]

Yeah, I'm just sort of saddened by the litigious nature of society these days. Granted, this could have been a brand new blade grip/rotor head that failed, but when I test with spinning blades, I use personal protective gear (leather gloves, eye protection, etc) and try to ensure nothing critical is in the likely path of destruction. I don't know the exact circumstances of this unfortunate accident, as the appeals text doesn't go into detail, but I wonder if I could see similar success with a suit if say, my Xacto knife rolled off my table, and fell blade first onto my barefoot. Could I sue Xacto for making a blade holder that is cylindrical and can roll off a table, turning it into a projectile?

Well someone can sue McDonalds (and win) for coffee being too hot (yes that was the case...not that it was hot. She won because it was "too hot")... yeah I guess you could.

 

[makattack]

Well someone can sue McDonalds (and win) for coffee being too hot (yes that was the case...not that it was hot. She won because it was "too hot")... yeah I guess you could.

Yah, I remember the "Hot Coffee" controversy -- both of them. Yep. No surprise, and this isn't a recent thing... at least in my lifetime.

I recalled someone telling me, while I was in the Army, of a case around the late 60's (when I was born) of a case being won by a dead person who somehow sued for wrongful death by his own improper handling of a firearm. That long dormant memory (from the early 90's) before Google has now motivated me to actually do a legal search and sure enough... I found it easily:

http://openjurist.org/415/f2d/1017/jameson-v-mutual-life-insurance-company-of-new-york

Not quite how the story was told to me, but relevant.

 

[rockyboy]

That hot coffee case is an interesting one actually - I had to do a report on it in college from the perspective of misleading media reporting changing the meaning of an event.

Turns out almost all the standard 'sound bites' reported in the media were factually incorrect, or seriously misleading. A better write up of the affair is https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts

 

[makattack]

True enough... there is a tendency to oversimplify things among us humans and not see all the nuances and jumping to conclusions. Thanks rockyboy! I love that I learned something new and shattered a misconception I had... at least with hot coffee!

 

[mikeporterinmd]

Well someone can sue McDonalds (and win) for coffee being too hot (yes that was the case...not that it was hot. She won because it was "too hot")... yeah I guess you could.

Like most stories, there is much more to this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants

Personally, I always found MacDonalds coffee to be way too hot. I think they do it to cover the crappy taste. At least back then. Some stores sell much better coffee these days.

Mike

 

[razor02097]

Like most stories, there is much more to this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liebeck_v._McDonald's_Restaurants

Personally, I always found MacDonalds coffee to be way too hot. I think they do it to cover the crappy taste. At least back then. Some stores sell much better coffee these days.

Mike

Yes. I know there was more to the story. That is why I said it was won because it was "too hot". I also know that she put a soft paper cup between her legs to remove the lid. Is that not a bad idea?

 

[Balu]

And now you know, why we in Europe don't want TTIP.

 

[mikeporterinmd]

Yes. I know there was more to the story. That is why I said it was won because it was "too hot". I also know that she put a soft paper cup between her legs to remove the lid. Is that not a bad idea?

Well, if you are in a car, it is pretty easy to dump the coffee onto yourself if something goes wrong. It was served in a driver-thru after all.

Why would you serve coffee hot enough to cause third degree burns? Focus on what that means. First degree is red skin. That's what we usually experience. Second degree is blisters. Truly, I am not certain what a third degree liquid burn is. Presumably permanent skin damage. I should measure how hot my Keurig makes coffee.

And lets remember the coffee is not served by some small local place. This was spec-ed and served by a corporation that has all the resources in the world to know exactly what it is doing and understanding the risks.

Mike

 

[kacknor]

So the main rotor head malfunctioned? Was this before or after he crashed it into the ground?

You can be quite sure the manufacturer will be asking the same question.

I tried to start a plane by hand and the prop kicked back to say hello to my finger tip. I was lucky...and I didn't do that again. T

The lessons best learned and most valuable usually involve blood and pain. Life is like that.

JD

 

[razor02097]

Well, if you are in a car, it is pretty easy to dump the coffee onto yourself if something goes wrong. It was served in a driver-thru after all.

Why would you serve coffee hot enough to cause third degree burns? Focus on what that means. First degree is red skin. That's what we usually experience. Second degree is blisters. Truly, I am not certain what a third degree liquid burn is. Presumably permanent skin damage. I should measure how hot my Keurig makes coffee.

And lets remember the coffee is not served by some small local place. This was spec-ed and served by a corporation that has all the resources in the world to know exactly what it is doing and understanding the risks.

Mike

Yes...I know. Ironically, I work at a burns hospital. I know about burns and scalds. Third degree burns are indicated by severe tissue damage. Typically the tissue in question will not heal. So if the patient's burn is large enough they will definitely need skin grafts. According to the burn foundation liquid even as low as 133 degrees F and up can still cause third degree burns. source. Granted this is referring to running water. That means a drink spilled on you would need to retain enough heat for enough time to cause the damage. So even if the coffee is set to the 160 degrees F the lawyers in the lawsuit wanted... it can still cause a third degree burn.

My point is that people can sue for pretty much anything now a days... frivolous tort lawsuits are a huge problem in America. Now it seems the courts are expanding people's ability to not only sue Americans, but foreign entities.

 

[AkimboGlueGuns]

Just read the legal document thing (it probably has a proper name, but I'm too lazy to find it). It really seems like the guys bought a 3D heli without any experience and tried to fly it, promptly crashed and needed a new rotor head. When he bought the new head I'm betting that he just googled how to do it and thought it was fine, then did a run up without taking proper safety precautions.

Sometimes people outside the hobby don't realize how similar models are to real aircraft. They can hurt you, as we've seen here, and thus require proper safety precautions.

 

[mikeporterinmd]

Now it seems the courts are expanding people's ability to not only sue Americans, but foreign entities.

I hear this problem about frivolous lawsuits all the time, but usually when I dig into it, it's not nearly as big as people make out the problem. For one thing, in order to file such a suit, you probably need a lawyer. And a lawyer isn't going to take on the case unless they expect to win some money. Or else you have to pay the lawyer up front, I suppose. In other cases, the issue is liability, which really isn't a topic to discuss here. It's far more complex than "oh, that frivolous" and besides, I'm not really competent enough to discuss it. But, I do get tired of hearing "talking point" stories about supposed problems. Usually, when you do the math, the opposite is true. Also, many "mega-wins" are not actually awarded as the judge changes the jury's decision, or appeals change the amount, etc.

Let's consider the following. MacDonalds wants to serve coffee at what, 180-190 degrees? Some number of people will be burned. Yes, as you point out, 133 can also do it. But, as you fail to point out, you would likely need a really large amount of coffee to do that since your body will cool the fluid prior to third degree burns setting in. So, I propose a rule that says "one gallon cups of 133 degree coffee should not be served in large foam cups via a drive thru." Moving on. So, MacDonalds wants to serve that coffee and some people are going to get burned. Badly. Who pays the medical bills?

You and me and everyone else. MacDonalds profits and we lose.

Mike

 

[mikeporterinmd]

... alternatively... would you expect a cup of soda served through the drive-thru to be so cold that it would cause freeze damage to your groin if you spilled it? I wouldn't. I would expect an uncomfortable chill and a wet seat. I would have several minutes, at least, to remove the ice before skin damage set in. I think we allow our common sense to be swayed by the media and the media is just looking to generate the biggest bang out of a story.

Mike

 

[razor02097]

... alternatively... would you expect a cup of soda served through the drive-thru to be so cold that it would cause freeze damage to your groin if you spilled it? I wouldn't. I would expect an uncomfortable chill and a wet seat. I would have several minutes, at least, to remove the ice before skin damage set in. I think we allow our common sense to be swayed by the media and the media is just looking to generate the biggest bang out of a story.

Mike

Because soda can not get cold enough to cause tissue damage, no I wouldn't. Now if they served me super chilled antifreeze? Then we have a different lawsuit.

Common sense is not setting any hot liquid cups between your knees and prying open the lid.