250g Limit... where is the science?
- Thread starter SSgt Duramax
- Start date
SSgt Duramax
Junior Member
We will have to wait and see how many FAA gestapo pop up at flying fields or anywhere a UAS may be flying with a scale which is calibrated enough to hold up in court.
On a serious not before we all (me included) got sidetracked on the sheer stupidity of the law, I was talking about carving out an exemption for fixed wings based on some common sense and physics. Thinking that may be a good way to start chipping away at the governmental lunacy that has arbitrarily been put in place if it cant be stopped full course (and it doesnt look like it will be).
Monte.C
...
I have no hope at all. For all the ridiculousness, all the counterintuitive, counterproductive, self-sabotaging, ulterior motives and downright woke leftist socialist insanity I see in this country today (and Canada,) I really have no expectation we can talk sense to the policy makers or law makers, not when big corporate wants something different.
But on a positive note, I have no expectation that I'll ever be touched or affected in any way by these rules, no matter what I fly.
You guys fight the fight and I hope you manage to ease the pain of the nonsense rules. That would be good for everybody.
Piotrsko
Master member
Haven't yet
SSgt Duramax
Junior Member
That's just it, most flying clubs will be FRIAs I would assume, so it would be a waste of time to enforce there. So where/how would they enforce anyways? Who would do it? Would it be the FAA? Would some other department be deputized to help enforce it?
So, let us look at how the FAA currently enforces MTOW on civil aircraft..... they don't, and a whole lot more could go wrong loading up a GA aircraft over MTOW than could go wrong with an RC plane. Part 103, what are you chances getting caught there if you don't really fly in and out of any major airports? Slim to none unless someone reports you for whatever reason. However, I get that you would be more likely to get reported for a UAV vs an ultralight (for some absolutely silly and insane reason, I believe that I could fly over my neighborhood with an ultralight, and no one would care, but if I took my nightfury over the neighborhood, there would be people crapping themselves on nextdoor, a couple already have seeing it 300 feet over a school football field geofenced over uninhabited areas).
So then, this is what enforcement would look like. Someone figures out how to report to said authority or just calls the non emergency line (which would probably involve calling the police, and making some exaggerated claim about how the vehicle is being operated) then they report it to the FAA, not knowing whether the craft has said device on it or not.
FAA comes out from wherever they're at, and the closest airport to me is Lackland AFB, then a smaller municipal airport a little further out. So this individual, even if they are on duty, has to drop whatever else it is they are doing which is probably more important, then come and find ME flying MY plane without said transponder. Then they would need me to land it, and somehow weight my craft on the spot with a certified calibrated scale to prove it was actually over 250g to cite me, confiscate it so I can't alter it so it would be admissible in court, or hope I play nice.
Then they would I suppose, after due process, impose whatever penalty that they deemed fit. Of course, I have free legal counsel at the U.S. taxpayers dime, so it would really just be a huge, and enormous waste of government money, more so than it already is.
How it would probably play out.
Karen calls police.
Police either:
A. Don't know what to do
B. Come out and say something to me
C. Correct answer - Notify FAA
Then the FAA either:
A. Has more important things to do.
B. Doesn't have someone on duty.
C. Sends someone out, and drives around to find me.
Then they either cite me, or they don't, and whatever legal proceedings go from there.
All of this supposing, that if everyone knew what they were doing, I wouldn't be long gone. I don't typically fly more than an hour or two, so chances are, I would be long gone.
Of course, if they received multiple complaints the same day and time of the week they could set up a "sting" operation and catch me red handed. However, said Karens like to brag about how they called the police or reported someone, so I would probably get pretty fair warning, and be privy to undue attention, and know to lay low.
However, the most likely scenario, is I have a plane fly away, or I lose control and hit some property or worse, injure someone, I am better off not having any identifying information on it, so there is that. I don't know how they would trace something like that, get fingerprints off my plane or something like that. Beats me.
Think about the swiss cheese model that would have to happen for them to actually enforce that on an individual.
The swiss cheese model used to be a great tool for demonstrating multiple layers of failure required in high reliability organizations for process improvement and the importance of multiple safety protocols. When I decided to look for a relevant swiss cheese model to represent what I was discussing, it turns out multiple government entities have decided to use it as a tool to promote their ineffective covid propaganda to fearmonger our poor populace that still believes in the government into wearing t-shirts over their face and generally not acting like a human for 2 years. My frustration of having to weed through propaganda for 10 minutes to find an adequate diagram to express my point is difficult to put into words, well, on this site at least.
Monte.C
...
Be a good citizen! Get your babies fingerprinted at 6 months old! I protect you and you protect me! Big Brother! It's your duty as a good comrade! As a good party member! For the CCP... For Mother Russ... For Mother USA!
Actually I thought members of clubs would get the most hassle to follow the rules, but from what you're saying, maybe not?
Flying Monkey fab
Elite member
All interesting but instead of looking at how your not going to get caught you should look at how people actually get caught. Far more informative.That's just it, most flying clubs will be FRIAs I would assume, so it would be a waste of time to enforce there. So where/how would they enforce anyways? Who would do it? Would it be the FAA? Would some other department be deputized to help enforce it?
So, let us look at how the FAA currently enforces MTOW on civil aircraft..... they don't, and a whole lot more could go wrong loading up a GA aircraft over MTOW than could go wrong with an RC plane. Part 103, what are you chances getting caught there if you don't really fly in and out of any major airports? Slim to none unless someone reports you for whatever reason. However, I get that you would be more likely to get reported for a UAV vs an ultralight (for some absolutely silly and insane reason, I believe that I could fly over my neighborhood with an ultralight, and no one would care, but if I took my nightfury over the neighborhood, there would be people crapping themselves on nextdoor, a couple already have seeing it 300 feet over a school football field geofenced over uninhabited areas).
So then, this is what enforcement would look like. Someone figures out how to report to said authority or just calls the non emergency line (which would probably involve calling the police, and making some exaggerated claim about how the vehicle is being operated) then they report it to the FAA, not knowing whether the craft has said device on it or not.
FAA comes out from wherever they're at, and the closest airport to me is Lackland AFB, then a smaller municipal airport a little further out. So this individual, even if they are on duty, has to drop whatever else it is they are doing which is probably more important, then come and find ME flying MY plane without said transponder. Then they would need me to land it, and somehow weight my craft on the spot with a certified calibrated scale to prove it was actually over 250g to cite me, confiscate it so I can't alter it so it would be admissible in court, or hope I play nice.
Then they would I suppose, after due process, impose whatever penalty that they deemed fit. Of course, I have free legal counsel at the U.S. taxpayers dime, so it would really just be a huge, and enormous waste of government money, more so than it already is.
How it would probably play out.
Karen calls police.
Police either:
A. Don't know what to do
B. Come out and say something to me
C. Correct answer - Notify FAA
Then the FAA either:
A. Has more important things to do.
B. Doesn't have someone on duty.
C. Sends someone out, and drives around to find me.
Then they either cite me, or they don't, and whatever legal proceedings go from there.
All of this supposing, that if everyone knew what they were doing, I wouldn't be long gone. I don't typically fly more than an hour or two, so chances are, I would be long gone.
Of course, if they received multiple complaints the same day and time of the week they could set up a "sting" operation and catch me red handed. However, said Karens like to brag about how they called the police or reported someone, so I would probably get pretty fair warning, and be privy to undue attention, and know to lay low.
However, the most likely scenario, is I have a plane fly away, or I lose control and hit some property or worse, injure someone, I am better off not having any identifying information on it, so there is that. I don't know how they would trace something like that, get fingerprints off my plane or something like that. Beats me.
Think about the swiss cheese model that would have to happen for them to actually enforce that on an individual.
The swiss cheese model used to be a great tool for demonstrating multiple layers of failure required in high reliability organizations for process improvement and the importance of multiple safety protocols. When I decided to look for a relevant swiss cheese model to represent what I was discussing, it turns out multiple government entities have decided to use it as a tool to promote their ineffective covid propaganda to fearmonger our poor populace that still believes in the government into wearing t-shirts over their face and generally not acting like a human for 2 years. My frustration of having to weed through propaganda for 10 minutes to find an adequate diagram to express my point is difficult to put into words, well, on this site at least.
SSgt Duramax
Junior Member
From what I could tell, you wouldn't need them if it was a FRIA, so if you only flew at clubs, you wouldn't need them, or that is my understanding at least, and the way it sounded in that podcast with David Messina or whatever his name was. So there wouldn't be a concentrated place for enforcement to go catch people breaking the law. It would be tons of alleged violations spread out everywhere.
I plan to, people aren't getting caught flying transponderless yet. However, I have sort of looked but haven't found much. But if you have found any good stories about FAA enforcement on model aviation I would like to see it.
Obviously, some of the videos would need to be loaded up on a burner youtube account or have some form of disclaimer or something. Kind of like if I decided to record myself driving 150mph on a public road. Better to not have that traceable back to you. Like this guy. Did a little aerobatics at an airshow, someone Karened him, and he lost his license for 7 months.
Flying Monkey fab
Elite member
Yup, you got it, most everyone getting enforcement are literally telling on themselves through social media.
Also if Karen rats you out the faa might send you a letter with an invitation to come to Jesus. I've known part 103 pilots to get these.
Piotrsko
Master member
GA is a bit different because you just cant generally land anywhere and put your plane in a locked garage. Oh yeah kitfoxes and ultrafrights......powered parachute gliders......
In my experiences, the local constable CAN enforce stuff, confiscate your equipment, fine you and do the court thing but generally won't because it will take a day out of his routine minimum and it will be a local ordinance violation. Btdt, can you say Bluff Cove, Rpv, CA? I can.
I have seen FCC enforcement van once. Never saw a FAA neighborhood enforcement. I dont advocate breaking the law but YMMV
In my experiences, the local constable CAN enforce stuff, confiscate your equipment, fine you and do the court thing but generally won't because it will take a day out of his routine minimum and it will be a local ordinance violation. Btdt, can you say Bluff Cove, Rpv, CA? I can.
I have seen FCC enforcement van once. Never saw a FAA neighborhood enforcement. I dont advocate breaking the law but YMMV
CappyAmeric
Elite member
Bad news is, the government always looks for more ways it can intrude. 250 gram was the starting point, and with government's fascistic ways, it will some day be coming for less than 250 grams, or destroying businesses that make UMX size.
SSgt Duramax
Junior Member
Incrementalism is their favorite thing. All it is going to take is someones UMX timber accidentally falling on to Nancy Pelozis car and we have to outlaw all of them.
Hondo76251
Legendary member
It's all about this, Nothing about safety. They are selling out the airspace....
SSgt Duramax
Junior Member
Facts. Although I am pretty sure we are the last people they need to worry about as far as the safety of their drones go. Instead of following amazon trucks, crafty porch pirates will probably figure out how to hack them and make them land. Heck, if Iran can do it to one of our stealth UAVs, certainly some tech savvy thief can make it happen.
SSgt Duramax
Junior Member
How do LTA vehicles or hybrid ships fall into that? It would be fun to build one of these. Get it weighing just at 250g......
dryhiker
Member
I live in Japan. I have flown RC here for 6 years, at a park's baseball field. I always flew at sunrise to avoid people, and at the end of 2021 it became a construction site.
I got a letter a week or two ago and it said I have to register my planes (Tiny Trainer, Mini Mustang, Alpha) and then yesterday I went to the website and got the whole brochure.
If you fly you have to notify the government in advance. Then, if you crash, you must report it to the authorities so that proper notification can be made to the manufacturer to correct the safety issue. You are also supposed to have a helper ensure that your plane doesn't leave the boundaries of the flying area. Needless to say it was dis-heartening.
I could go on about how dumb this is but that is self evident. I told my co-worker about the situation today affecting all RC planes over 100 grams, and his answer was pretty simple and brilliant. "It sounds like you have your design requirements".
I will register my planes. If I do that before the required compliance date of 20 June, I will not have to install transponders (I think!). After 20 June I may not fly them again in Japan. What I will do is make some similar planes under 100 grams. I was researching components just now and I think I can pull it off. I may need some of your help to figure out some of the parts, but it seems feasible. 20g for the battery, 6g for a motor, 1.5g servos, Maybe a 50g airframe.
I will think about how I can still fly and avoid getting arrested and deported, and will choose not to complain. (so hard!) The bright side is that a 100 g airplane will need a smaller space in which to fly. This could all work out!
One thing I have noticed and will ask if anyone has insight into. Where are the remote ID modules? I haven't seen them on Amazon, or the FT store, or anywhere a hobbyist would look. Is that a good sign or not?
Andy.
I got a letter a week or two ago and it said I have to register my planes (Tiny Trainer, Mini Mustang, Alpha) and then yesterday I went to the website and got the whole brochure.
If you fly you have to notify the government in advance. Then, if you crash, you must report it to the authorities so that proper notification can be made to the manufacturer to correct the safety issue. You are also supposed to have a helper ensure that your plane doesn't leave the boundaries of the flying area. Needless to say it was dis-heartening.
I could go on about how dumb this is but that is self evident. I told my co-worker about the situation today affecting all RC planes over 100 grams, and his answer was pretty simple and brilliant. "It sounds like you have your design requirements".
I will register my planes. If I do that before the required compliance date of 20 June, I will not have to install transponders (I think!). After 20 June I may not fly them again in Japan. What I will do is make some similar planes under 100 grams. I was researching components just now and I think I can pull it off. I may need some of your help to figure out some of the parts, but it seems feasible. 20g for the battery, 6g for a motor, 1.5g servos, Maybe a 50g airframe.
I will think about how I can still fly and avoid getting arrested and deported, and will choose not to complain. (so hard!) The bright side is that a 100 g airplane will need a smaller space in which to fly. This could all work out!
One thing I have noticed and will ask if anyone has insight into. Where are the remote ID modules? I haven't seen them on Amazon, or the FT store, or anywhere a hobbyist would look. Is that a good sign or not?
Andy.
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