DISCUSSION ON BUILDING NEW GENERATION PLANES

Mr_Stripes

Elite member
itsBlunty brought it up in the ELRS discord and it happened to be an example of the request, so I posted it here.
Ahh so ur looking into Elrs too? I’ve gotta get a jumper t18 v2 first so I can have a jr bay spektrum doesn’t have one. Low latency good range and lightweight
sounds really great. How do you put it on planes tho? Same way as crossfire?
 

JasonK

Participation Award Recipient
Ahh so ur looking into Elrs too? I’ve gotta get a jumper t18 v2 first so I can have a jr bay spektrum doesn’t have one. Low latency good range and lightweight sounds really great.

Already have 2 iNav fixed wings running it and a receiver waiting to go in my quad.
 

JasonK

Participation Award Recipient
How is it? Some people say they feel a good bit less latency.
much more stable link and better range, not sure on the latency, have been flying stuff with servos, so there are some mechanical limitations to how fast the craft can respond... but I think we have gone rather off topic at this point.
 

Mr_Stripes

Elite member
much more stable link and better range, not sure on the latency, have been flying stuff with servos, so there are some mechanical limitations to how fast the craft can respond... but I think we have gone rather off topic at this point.
Sorry. Does the quad wing need any mixing/reprogramming to work?
 

L Edge

Master member
it looks to me like the B1 is a traditional tailed plane (maybe you mean something like the B-21 I linked above)
View attachment 210549


most of us who do anything fancy just use a 'real' flight controller instead of something like that (more functionality and less $ on a FC board then that)

1) Yes, I meant the rudderless type.
2) The videos posted with the wing did not show a proper landing. Would you make it? That's why to sell me on a design you need to show me a video that shows at least 2 launches ,flying a figure 8(left and right turns) and a successful landing. Pick it up and do it again. Otherwise it needs further work.
3) Now you talk about a "real" controller and less dollars. The AS3X is a receiver and programable stabilization(gyros) costing about $75 and your FC cost about $20 plus a reliable 6 channel receiver cost about $40.
You stated that it probably has more functions. I have used the kk2 board extensively on a number of experiments and it takes a lot of programming. Could you post info of your controller so I can compare the the AS3X to yours.
For instance, if the plane is oscillating in the air, can you reduce the gain in the air. Fc's require you to land. Not the AS3X. In fact, the app allows you to program d/r, expo, servo direction, travel in 3 modes, and set rate and head gain, and priority with a swipe of your finger.

Got any suggestions to get this to fly where it is launched, fly's 8, and land in a video.

4)
fsw.JPG
 

JasonK

Participation Award Recipient
....
no, I am not going to do all the work for you, I have pointed you in the correct direction, it is up to you now to do some research yourself. I have linked you multiple items that do what you ask (by function maybe not by exact flight path). when I searched for AS3X, I saw stuff over $125 for basic stabilization, not for a full FC (which right now is around $50-75 depending on feature set) and the RXes I use are around $15.

If you want to learn more about full FCs, take a look at the Ardupilot or iNav projects, they are _huge_ and expect you to be able to be willing to take some time to learn how to use them, vs having it handed to you already working (as each craft is different, there are lots of settings to be configured and tuned for each individual craft).
 

Mr_Stripes

Elite member
to my understanding, that exact layout of motors allows it to work with the quad's default programming.
So if I upsized it and hooked 4 motors up to a toothpick fc it would fly? What if you did that with efds? But the polyhedral of the wings eliminates it I guess.
 

JasonK

Participation Award Recipient
So if I upsized it and hooked 4 motors up to a toothpick fc it would fly? What if you did that with efds? But the polyhedral of the wings eliminates it I guess.

not sure if the EDFs would work, this does rely on torque from the motor/props and how quickly quad type motors can change speeds

regarding 'upsizing it', I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work. (that wasn't my design, so I can only speculate)
 

L Edge

Master member
Pretty sure that wont fly, too many violations of physics, but hey, I am wrong a lot sometimes

Hey, if I can design and fly(got the video to verify a full flight take off, fly around and land, not crash) a plane that morphs the wing from perpendicular to swinging aft(-45 to a swing forward of +30ish) in flight which NASA hasn't done. What it took is go search the data found in the wind tunnel reports.
As for the FSW(no fuselage so I am not sent wrong videos) , I know exactly what needs to change from tunnel data to perhaps get it to fly. I am trying to change the flow pattern over the wing. If not, will add AS3X to assist plus the use of canards.

It is actually what you know or what you have come across or develop. He hasn't looked at my stuff at all.
What if I said you now can fly a 5 bladed 64 mm EDF with a 1300 3s lipo for almost 10 min and real slow as a trainer and real stable.
How about a STOL plane that can come in at 40-45 degrees from 100+ ft high and land at a very high angle of attack(no flaps) and stop short as well as take off a short distance. And it is not a tail dragger.
It is called a stabilizer that changes the air flow (it gets rid of turbulant flow) which reduces drag giving it stability and a longer flight time.
And he claims I don't do my work.

So, it is possible that it might not violate the laws of physics.
Just like the video of my X-47B, I knew what the problems of rudderless planes are, I just used 2 servos and a thrust vector nozzle to cover the yaw problems. Hey, no gyro needed if you know what to do. Full flight twice. Not a fluke. I did add some other rules to make it fly.


Since the direction changed in the thread, guess it is time to end it about gyros and rudderless planes.
 

Mr_Stripes

Elite member
not sure if the EDFs would work, this does rely on torque from the motor/props and how quickly quad type motors can change speeds

regarding 'upsizing it', I don't see any reason why that wouldn't work. (that wasn't my design, so I can only speculate)
Those little motors and props have next to no torque tho...
 

JasonK

Participation Award Recipient
Those little motors and props have next to no torque tho...
except that is how whoops get their yaw, so I wouldn't under count it. but it does look like there is some vectoring in that setup to make it more effective. it isn't 'no torque' it is the delta in the rotational moment in the prop.
 

L Edge

Master member
JasonK in reply 88, suggested he is not going to do all the work for me. The point I am trying to bring up is -- Since no one here has plans and a flying rudderless model that can be duplicated that actually flies from launch to landing, you might try a gyro system(FC or AS3X).
Do I understand 6th gen problems generated by a rudderless wing that was solved.(Hint-see the above video). There isn't a gyro on that one.
Too complicated to duplicate.

Working with a Flight Controller(it is a pain), working with a (AS3X) easier since there is no programming at all. I have done at least 3 projects dealing with both.
Result- Fc's are 1'st gen, AS3X is second. All work is done in the receiver with a tap or swipe of the finger. Can a FC program rate and head holding mode by a swipe of the finger? How about differential aileron? Point is, most pilots don't even do mixing, Fc is a killer. I learned on the KK2 open system.

So, what I am saying like in the first thread, do you want to try fly a rudderless model, take a look at AS3X as a means to.

JasonK, noticed you have explored VTOL, STOL and flying wings. I did my homework in these areas, would love to discuss how you solved your problems. Will my FSW work? Any ideas?

That's what FT is for, to share info on projects only.
 

JasonK

Participation Award Recipient
JasonK, noticed you have explored VTOL, STOL and flying wings. I did my homework in these areas, would love to discuss how you solved your problems. Will my FSW work? Any ideas?

only problem I have ran into was with the VTOL and that was because Inav didn't support the setup, since I didn't plan on using the navigation stuff, just the stabilization, I just found the spot in the code that handled the mixer stuff and made a small edit to allow me to do the mixing changes I needed.

I suggest an actual FC over the AS3X, as they are more capable, don't do vendor lock in, and are generally cheaper.

I have even seen flying wings that have no vertical fins on them and rely on the drag delta from yawing motion to keep them tracking correctly (but don't have a look up reference off the top of my head). I have also pointed you to some that do it. if your looking for plans, I don't have any handy, but can see how it could be done (but I only have so much time available to try things out)
 

L Edge

Master member
only problem I have ran into was with the VTOL and that was because Inav didn't support the setup, since I didn't plan on using the navigation stuff, just the stabilization, I just found the spot in the code that handled the mixer stuff and made a small edit to allow me to do the mixing changes I needed.

I suggest an actual FC over the AS3X, as they are more capable, don't do vendor lock in, and are generally cheaper.

I have even seen flying wings that have no vertical fins on them and rely on the drag delta from yawing motion to keep them tracking correctly (but don't have a look up reference off the top of my head). I have also pointed you to some that do it. if your looking for plans, I don't have any handy, but can see how it could be done (but I only have so much time available to try things out)

In regards to VTOL(bicopter), how are you doing the transition stage from vert to horizontal, say for the engine thrust handling roll to shift to forward thrust? How are you handling the time sequence for vert to horizontal on your FC? How about returning to vert?
 
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