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Enforcing new laws at Flite Fest

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
#1
We have ample time to look at this issue and find out ahead of time how it will all be handled. As it stands this will all pass and those mandatory dog tags will be law. Not guide lines as before but actual law.

Think about the average pilot at flight fest. At least one aircraft coming with them, probably plans for at least one build, and for a good portion of them airplanes for combat.

With the new laws each and every one will need to be registered. That process takes time and just that alone with having to get a registration for every plane built at Flite Fest would be impossible in just the 4 days for the event. So that pretty much kills combat if those laws are followed. Now IF someone were to pre register prior to Flite Fest and have a valid registration to use the next step would be to put on a 200 dollar (current expected pricing) location device on a plane you are intending to crash and possibly lose in a bean field. Add on top of all that everyone's cell phone would have to be going thru the wifi link provided for FT plans and video distribution or be using their own cell services on roaming at the crackhead cost of doing that.

Just the shear logistics of Flite Fest under these laws will severely cripple if not kill the entire reason for Flite Fest.

Would be interesting to see or hear any contingency plans for handling this specially with the need for individual dog tags having to be registered to every plane there. I am pretty sure just bringing one dog tag and swapping that out wont cut it either because you cant just swap it has to be re-registered with some kind of documentation the prior craft it was registered has in fact been retired. I will be willing to bet there WILL be law enforcement AND government reps there wringing their hands like Snidely Whiplash over getting as many violators as possible just to set an example.

People cry about buying a 20 dollar esc how they gonna handle multiple 200 dollar dog tags...

Lets hear your thoughts ideas and flames as this needs to be hashed out no matter what your thoughts.


Edit: PLEASE STAY ON TOPIC OF FLITE FEST AND NOT THE JUSTIFICATIONS OF THE LAWS. THATS ALL ADDRESSED IN OTHER THREADS.

Edit 2: here are them more specific things that we face and why I am starting this conversation now.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/302/text

Specifically Title III Sub title A and B and Statute 3189 are the parts that will destroy our hobby.
 
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Flying Monkey fab

Well-known member
#2
I'm afraid that this will all just be over. The FAA just doesn't understand its own broad brush and thinks "camera multirotor" when they think of sUAS.


Thousands will quit, thousands more will have to "go to ground" and any flying together will be by texting each other. A good law brings people into the fold the way FAR part 103 did, this does just the opposite.

It will be interesting to see what thousands upon thousands of people becoming newly minted outlaws will look like.
I'm not too worried about it aside from being able to gather together as county deputies don't enforce federal law and for the most part, won't care as long as you don't draw attention to yourself. The FAA has very few people to work enforcement so you'll have to do something stupid to get caught just going to the country and flying.

If/when this passes I'll buy as many recivers as I can and "go to ground".
 

sprzout

Knower of useless information
Mentor
#3
The answer is one of 3 things:

1) The event will be cancelled because nobody will be able to get the non-existent tags (because as of yet, nobody knows WHAT these tags are, or how EXACTLY they're supposed to work).

2) The event will carry on, and everyone will be required to have the tags. No tags, no flights. With the tag requirements, there will be fewer people flying due to the cost of the tags and fear of losing them.

3) The event will happen at a FAA-Recognized Identification Area (FRIA) and no tags will be required for the event.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
#4
The answer is one of 3 things:

1) The event will be cancelled because nobody will be able to get the non-existent tags (because as of yet, nobody knows WHAT these tags are, or how EXACTLY they're supposed to work).

2) The event will carry on, and everyone will be required to have the tags. No tags, no flights. With the tag requirements, there will be fewer people flying due to the cost of the tags and fear of losing them.

3) The event will happen at a FAA-Recognized Identification Area (FRIA) and no tags will be required for the event.
agreed on points 1 and 2.

Point 3 brings up the added questions..

1.which site do you apply for the FRIA.. Furey field as that is a proven place for camping and all that aspect of Flite Fest or for Edgewater which has not even started on the camping. Will people sleep at Furey field and fly at Edgewater?

2. will they be issuing FRIAS and can Flite test acquire one fast enough with the shear amount of applications that are going to flood the FAA.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
#5
I'm afraid that this will all just be over. The FAA just doesn't understand its own broad brush and thinks "camera multirotor" when they think of sUAS.


Thousands will quit, thousands more will have to "go to ground" and any flying together will be by texting each other. A good law brings people into the fold the way FAR part 103 did, this does just the opposite.

It will be interesting to see what thousands upon thousands of people becoming newly minted outlaws will look like.
I'm not too worried about it aside from being able to gather together as county deputies don't enforce federal law and for the most part, won't care as long as you don't draw attention to yourself. The FAA has very few people to work enforcement so you'll have to do something stupid to get caught just going to the country and flying.

If/when this passes I'll buy as many recivers as I can and "go to ground".
Agreed but what has this to do with Flite Fest. I am seriously looking ahead to see what can be mitigated and what we as a community will face to even have a Flite fest this year.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
#7
Full implementation at that 4.5 year mark where all UAS will be prebuilt and certified and no new FRIAS being issued with existing FRIAS subject to re-certification or phase out. The vote to become law is in march (60 days) with the application process for FRIAS to follow so no established legal areas until going thru that process. That means every AMA site will be applying as well as Flite Test and that approval "line" will be a long and slow one as is all govt process are when their approval needed goes against their agenda. Somewhere in all that the rules for what the FAA deems a CBO to be need to be set as currently even the AMA is not recognized so their "guidelines" are invalid which was what Flite Fest usually follows.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
#10
What is REALLY needed, is someone from Flite Test on this board to answer these questions for us. We can Guess all day long, but the peeps that need to be doing something about it are not in on the conversation.

Regards,
LitterBug
I am sure the mods and admins pass on things like this to the core team so they can decide if they need to interact. I am hoping some solutions or ideas that would be helpful arise from this thread so when they do come here they can answer more specific things then just saying yes FF20 will or will not happen. They may be able to give more specifics of what we as attendies might be required to bring have or do to be allowed to fly.

I am sure at some point someone will chime in. I am just getting the ball rolling as early as possible rather then wait last minute and everyone be in panic mode
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
#11
I'm not registering a 30" foam plane that took four hours to build with $75 worth of electronics on it. It's just not happening, come with that what penalties may come. I got into the hobby because it was now finally accessible. The challenge was all in designing and flying well and learning the hobby and aerodynamics without so much restrictions in price, time, and certainly not beaureaucratic manure like this. They will not take all that away from me and kill the whole point of foam planes. The things I'd really like to say are not family friendly, so Instead, I'll just tell it like it is, without any of the four-letter "sentence enhancers" I want to use.

This is arbitrary and authoritarian. It serves no useful or logical purpose that can't be traced back to either corporate greed or beaureaucratic ignorance(probably a mixture of both). These are exactly the kinds of reasons(having to deal with this sort of thing in every aspect of life), that adults have hobbies like this, to stay sane, and forget that crap, and just have fun. But I guess there's just no escaping. If there's no escape that leaves conforming or standing my ground. I choose to stand my ground and continue flying the way I have until this blows over, which it may, because it's BS.

I guess real hobbys aren't important anymore. If it doesn't have to do with TV, video games, or shopping/consumerism or something you can do indoors, I guess it just gets in the way of the government and corporations, such as wanting the air space for dumb "delivery drones" that are more dangerous and impractical than our models. I guess people are only more connected on social media...other than that, the 21st century is on its way to being the era of "go to work, keep your head down, get home, Netflix, sleep, have everything delivered to the door that's why you need our dumb drones,rinse and repeat." Genuine socializing, hanging out outside, real hobbies, adventure, as the stuff that makes life...well, life...is being pushed to the side for a life of routine and servitude to people and institutions who frankly don't give a crap about you or anything other than money and power. Not my cup of tea.

I was going to say I'm sorry if this offends anybody, but honestly? I'm really not...
Please read the first post and keep on topic. AS stated this is about Flite Fest not opinions on the laws. Again there are other running threads for this type of posting.
 

The Hangar

Well-known member
#12
I'm not registering a 30" foam plane that took four hours to build with $75 worth of electronics on it. It's just not happening, come with that what penalties may come. I got into the hobby because it was now finally accessible. The challenge was all in designing and flying well and learning the hobby and aerodynamics without so much restrictions in price, time, and certainly not beaureaucratic manure like this. They will not take all that away from me and kill the whole point of foam planes. The things I'd really like to say are not family friendly, so Instead, I'll just tell it like it is, without any of the four-letter "sentence enhancers" I want to use.

This is arbitrary and authoritarian. It serves no useful or logical purpose that can't be traced back to either corporate greed or beaureaucratic ignorance(probably a mixture of both). These are exactly the kinds of reasons(having to deal with this sort of thing in every aspect of life), that adults have hobbies like this, to stay sane, and forget that crap, and just have fun. But I guess there's just no escaping. If there's no escape that leaves conforming or standing my ground. I choose to stand my ground and continue flying the way I have until this blows over, which it may, because it's BS.

I guess real hobbys aren't important anymore. If it doesn't have to do with TV, video games, or shopping/consumerism or something you can do indoors, I guess it just gets in the way of the government and corporations, such as wanting the air space for dumb "delivery drones" that are more dangerous and impractical than our models. I guess people are only more connected on social media...other than that, the 21st century is on its way to being the era of "go to work, keep your head down, get home, Netflix, sleep, have everything delivered to the door that's why you need our dumb drones,rinse and repeat." Genuine socializing, hanging out outside, real hobbies, adventure, as the stuff that makes life...well, life...is being pushed to the side for a life of routine and servitude to people and institutions who frankly don't give a crap about you or anything other than money and power. Not my cup of tea.

I was going to say I'm sorry if this offends anybody, but honestly? I'm really not...
Nicely said.
 

Vimana89

Well-known member
#13
Please read the first post and keep on topic. AS stated this is about Flite Fest not opinions on the laws. Again there are other running threads for this type of posting.
It's gone. I'll move it or post it somewhere another time where it will be more on topic. I won't be attending the Flite Fest events myself, so I have no idea and only passing interest in how they will handle it, but hosting the event on a spot that would avoid the need for any registration sounds like the most feasible option. How I'll be handling it is rather simple...business as usual until they actually do something about it.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
#14
Here is some more specific info for everyone to look at and see what the real issues are so there is less speculation and more information here.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/302/text

Specifically Title III Sub title A and B and Statute 3189 are the parts that will destroy our hobby.

EDIT: added to first post to make it easier for people just seeing the page before reading thru the other posts.
 

sprzout

Knower of useless information
Mentor
#16
agreed on points 1 and 2.

Point 3 brings up the added questions..

1.which site do you apply for the FRIA.. Furey field as that is a proven place for camping and all that aspect of Flite Fest or for Edgewater which has not even started on the camping. Will people sleep at Furey field and fly at Edgewater?

2. will they be issuing FRIAS and can Flite test acquire one fast enough with the shear amount of applications that are going to flood the FAA.
The problem with FRIAs is that nobody knows exactly where/how to register yet. According to the FAA, it has to be done through a Community Based Organization like the AMA, but as for how exactly to go about applying for a FRIA, nobody seems to know, much less who qualifying CBOs are to submit paperwork through. I'm fairly certain you can contact the AMA to submit for you since they seem to be working hand in hand with the FAA at this time, but there's nothing concrete I've seen yet saying they WILL be the avenue to submit.

And, for all we know, since this is still in discussion for another 18 months of comment, this process may change between now and then regarding FRIAs - what if there's a community park that isn't a marked AMA site, like Thude Park in Arizona, or Sunset State Beach in California, where they have an RC glider port, or Dave's Beach in California, where pilots go slope soaring?

There's a LOT of grey here that needs answers, and I don't think it's going to stop or change anything for Flite Fest 2020. Who knows? Maybe it ends up being something that the government just looks the other way on, and really only comes down on people if there's an incident involving full scale aircraft, where they need to get involved. I don't know - I'm just making a wild-donkey guess.
 

Merv

Well-known member
#17
So what then is Bixler doing in this video?


To me it looks like he received FAA approval to fly from his phone app. I suspect he could have done it just as easily from his home. I suspect this flying site was given instant FRIA approval.

I agree with @sprzout, it ALL depends on how easy it is to get FRIA approval. If it is as easy as Josh makes it look, then there is not a problem. If it is near impossible, then we are indeed in trouble.

Lets get more information before we go DEFCON 5.p

Edit: I no longer believe this video is accurate. I believe the FAA changed the rules after this video was published in November 2019
 
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mach1 rc

Well-known member
#18
So what then is Bixler doing in this video?


To me it looks like he received FAA approval to fly from his phone app. I suspect he could have done it just as easily from his home. I suspect this flying site was given instant FRIA approval.

I agree with @sprzout, it ALL depends on how easy it is to get FRIA approval. If it is as easy as Josh makes it look, then there is not a problem. If it is near impossible, then we are indeed in trouble.

Lets get more information before we go DEFCON 5.
That's cool I didn't know j bix was in that video
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
#20
So what then is Bixler doing in this video?


To me it looks like he received FAA approval to fly from his phone app. I suspect he could have done it just as easily from his home. I suspect this flying site was given instant FRIA approval.

I agree with @sprzout, it ALL depends on how easy it is to get FRIA approval. If it is as easy as Josh makes it look, then there is not a problem. If it is near impossible, then we are indeed in trouble.

Lets get more information before we go DEFCON 5.
Already posted that info. You need to have EVERY craft individually registered at 5 dollars each. Each one of them have to have their own yet to be determined identification device that connect to the internet thru your cell phone to the 30 dollar a year "Service provider" (not sure if that will be per craft or not as no clarification has been given) to the FAA.

This has nothing to do with FRIAS nor does Josh and Alex being in the video. It also does not guarantee Flite Test / Flite Fest a FRIA before July. If they get an automatic pass imagine the out cry from AMA fields and other areas in line to get their FRIAS.

Nobody is going Defcon 5. Its a discussion I started to put thoughts and ideas and stimulate dialog in one place where hopefully at some point actual information can be put from the Flite Test core team.