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First built quad log (Or V-tail?)

#1
I'm unsure if this will be a V-tail or a quad. I'm more interested in the authority that a Vtail has, with the advantage of the Tri without some of the negatives. (Such as: a motor goes out and the Tri crashes. Same is true for quad or V, but less likely to destroy all things.) I'm also interested in cheap. Like, really cheap. E-bay cheap. I almost bought a kit from Hobby King. I had a ton of troubles with their ordering card system, so I didn't.

These things were bought from Amazon:

Andoer A2212/13T 1000KV brushless
Andoer SimonK 30A ESC with 3A 5A BEC (Do I need this much amperage? I also rememberd reading about BEC's being bad or something for Quads.)
Hobbypower KK2.1

Sorry about the lack of links, I can't copy and paste.

I'm considering a V-tail that I saw... somewhere. I'll edit this post when I find it. All of the ones I'm considering need to be 3D printed. If I ordered the wrong parts here, I can return them to Amazon, so feel free to recomend other things. I have a parkflyer remote (it sucks but works until I get something better) and am undescided (fluid) about the exact build.

Edit: It's the Horus Vtail! There's also a Hunter Vtail I like, but I can't find any files for it.

Edit2: The Hunter is commerical,and I can see the files, but don't have permission to download. However, the Vtail that is on the OpenPilot forums looks good: search openpilot forums 42022-v-tail-quad

I want authority in flight, and I want it to be fun to fly. FPV at some point. Like others, though, it needs to be upgradable... and the world of brushless and ESC's is confusing.

Thanks for reading, and thanks for the advice! This is a very good community.
 
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#3
Its true a vtail will give you better yaw authority, but as a new pilot (Im guessing?), how long do you think it will take before the yaw speed of a regular/racing quad is inadequate for you? For the record, I think mine does 1000 degree per second easily, and I havent even tried getting more, my brain isnt that fast.

Im also going to question the advantage of any quad vs a tri when a motor fails. Either is going to come tumbling down. In theory, a quad is controllable with just 2 motors (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek0FrCaogcs&feature=youtu.be) , but no flight controller on the market implements that yet AFAIK.

That leaves the main disadvantage of a V tail: reduced efficiency, ie, shorter flight times. Whether thats a good trade off for cooler looks and/or different yaw feel is for you to decide.
 
#4
I didn't consider shorter flight times! That's good to know. I've been flying a small Syma X11. (Well. The TRNDlabs version that cost my sister $100.) It's fun, but has issues... such as three minute flight time. (something is wrong with the low voltage cut off.) When it flies well, the only 'fun' move is when you hold the rudder in a direction and turn in it. I guess I want the flight char of a plane in a quad. Yank and bank isn't allowed in a quad, though. (I think?)

Part of it is that I'm not fond of the look of the typical racing quads. (When people call the Spaceshuttle a flying brick, at least it looks cool!)

I'm looking into laser etching a design. I have access to a lase etcher and a 3D printer, but I'm unsure what material would be best. (Best is a variable that combines cheap and quality.)

Ah. I'll also post photos and real links soon. Ish.
 
#5
. I guess I want the flight char of a plane in a quad. Yank and bank isn't allowed in a quad, though. (I think?)
With a quad, turning is a combination of yaw and bank. If you fly slowly, yaw is your main turn control, but as your forward speed increases, bank becomes more important. If you dont get this, think of extremes. when stationary, all you need is yaw. When pitched forward >45 degree, yaw alone will do funny things, but not make you turn. And interestingly, at speed you also need to apply some pitch control, not unlike 'bank and yank"

Thats not to say its really like an airplane, no quad flies like one. But the faster you fly, or more accurate, the more forward tilt you have, the more it begins to resemble one I guess. Just one that requires fine throttle and yaw control. For that, I find quads excellent to improve fixed wing skills :)
 
#6
I'm looking into laser etching a design. I have access to a lase etcher and a 3D printer, but I'm unsure what material would be best. (Best is a variable that combines cheap and quality.)
No such thing I fear. A printed quad will generally not be crash resistant, and if you attempt to make it that anyway, it will become far too heavy. Especially in the 400+ size you seem to be looking at.

Your best bet may be to combine wooden booms with printed parts, and hope the wood breaks in a crash, so you can easily (and cheaply) repair it.

As for what material to print; give PET a try. its pretty strong and lightweight, and easier to print (no warping) than ABS.
 
#7
But the faster you fly, or more accurate, the more forward tilt you have, the more it begins to resemble one I guess. Just one that requires fine throttle and yaw control. For that, I find quads excellent to improve fixed wing skills :)
I'm getting the feeling that it will help! The little quad is the first flying thing I've had that worked well, everything before was either built and never flown, or flown once. Before I take out my FT Foam Warbird, I need to improve my skills.

Crashability will be helpful, and I'm glad that laser cutting will work. It woulds like I'd need a really steady hand to fly anything 3D printed, without it breaking often. the second Vtail I mentioned is laser etched, rather than 3d printed, so I may see about going with that.

edit: Oh. I misunderstood. You were referring to the 3d print materal. I'll ask my 3D print guy about PET, but I'm also wondering about etching material. Edit 2: Eplastics' G10 looks to be a good choice, according to something I just read on these forums.

And the motor + esc I have are aimed at larger craft? That should be fun. I got them because 1. I've seen them online paired together. 2. 30A seems better than 10A. 3. They had mostly good reviews. (Ok, with caviots. Like... don't use the included props or nuts.)
 
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#8
And the motor + esc I have are aimed at larger craft?
recommended prop for that motor is 8-10". That wont fit on a miniquad :)
Thats not to say its a very powerful motor, because its not. So try to keep it light.

That should be fun. I got them because 1. I've seen them online paired together. 2. 30A seems better than 10A.
Your motor is rated for 12A max.Not much point in using an ESC thats capable >~18-20A. More is not better in this case, more is needlessly heavy. You want some safety margin, but not that much. But hey, it will work.
 
#9
Dang! I chose wrong. I'll see about returning... well. One or the other.

How can you tell about the motors? I thought I knew how to tell, I'm fairly aquainted with battery tech, but the motor/esc seems like magic. KV this KV that. I haven't found anything online to explain, but I'm sure that means I haven't searched for the right things.
 

Snarls

Gravity Tester
Mentor
#10
Dang! I chose wrong. I'll see about returning... well. One or the other.

How can you tell about the motors? I thought I knew how to tell, I'm fairly aquainted with battery tech, but the motor/esc seems like magic. KV this KV that. I haven't found anything online to explain, but I'm sure that means I haven't searched for the right things.
It's just something you learn over time, or you can spend hours reading up on. The motor you chose is 2212 which has a 22mm stator diameter which is common in mini quads. It however has a 12mm stator height which allows the motor to spin a bigger prop at a lower rate (lower KV) than mini quad motors which are 4-6mm in stator height and have much higher KVs. I'm sure Zoom can enlighten in more detail if you would like, otherwise there is lots of info about it here and on RCGroups which you may or may not want to read.

If you don't want to or can't return you could always build a larger size quad, which might be easier anyway as a beginner.
 
#11
The either or is returning the 30A esc and buying a motor that will reach 28A or so, or returning the ESC and getting a 12A esc. What would be a 28A motor?
 
#12
What would be a 28A motor?
one thats too big for a beginner quad IMO.

However you dont want to exactly match ESC and motor either, a 12A esc would be cutting it too close. An 18-20A Esc would be best for that motor, but honestly, I wouldnt bother returning them, unless the esc's weigh like a lead brick. The extra capacity will come in handy in the future, for larger multirotor or even planes.

edit: glancing over the reviews at amazon, I take the above back. I wouldnt swap them because they are 30A, but because they appear to be rubbish:
http://www.amazon.com/Andoer-Brushless-Multicopter-Qudcopter-Helicopter/dp/B00LNSBID6
 
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#13
one thats too big for a beginner quad IMO.

However you dont want to exactly match ESC and motor either, a 12A esc would be cutting it too close. An 18-20A Esc would be best for that motor, but honestly, I wouldnt bother returning them, unless the esc's weigh like a lead brick. The extra capacity will come in handy in the future, for larger multirotor or even planes.

edit: glancing over the reviews at amazon, I take the above back. I wouldnt swap them because they are 30A, but because they appear to be rubbish:
http://www.amazon.com/Andoer-Brushless-Multicopter-Qudcopter-Helicopter/dp/B00LNSBID6
I was torn on getting it, for the price vs. not getting them for the reviews. I figure I can try them, after all, if it goes wrong, a return is easy. The other idea is: What are you thoughts on 4-in one ESCs?

Also, what about something like this: LHI 4 x EMAX Simonk 12A ESC + MT2204 2300KV Motor For 250mm QAV250.

I realize that I'm finding the cheapest parts, and then making a quad based on whatever I get!
 
#14
Ok! I went ahead and took apart the ESCs to resolder wire connectors, and it was a good thing I did. Thereason those people's ESCs failed is the positive power lead jumping to a cpasitor and a board commpent. It looks like it's supposed to connect the capassitor, but not the board component. There's one ESC without that jump. I'll gladly trade saving $10 or so and doing personal labor by resoldering and removing the jump.

I'll post pictures soon. Ordered a new battery charger for the camera. (Ok. I may see about charging it with my advanced lipo charger...)

Also! I've made a battery holder for laptop batteries. It's currently configured as 2s, 3s (Two batteries per cell, and three in a row) with balancing leads. I only charge it with one set in, and can choose to have the higher capacity or not depending on the situation.
 
#16
Hmmm.. that device is a 78M05 voltage regulator, and its the Voltage in pin. I actually think its supposed to connect to both the capacitor and the incoming + wire, but dont quote me on that.
 
#17
That's what I'm thinking! Hopefully I get a reply from the seller.

Also. The motors and the kk2 board came in today! Need bullet connectors though. Those I'll get though Amazon. I don't trust myself enough to solder directly.

Also talked to Drury University people about using their router to make the frame. I'm an alumni there, so hopefully they will. Mayyyybe even for free!
 
#18
Haha. So while 'fixing' the ESC's I managed to break one. HOWEVER. I shall attempt to fix it.

Ok. For the body. I've chosen to not make the OpenPilot V-Tail. I'll make a regular quad in the X config out of home made compost board. I'm an artist by trade, and use foam core/mat-board often. So: mat-board/epoxy/harder plastic/foam core/mat-board. Cutting it is a pain, but it's cheap and relatively light.

Also. I have an arduino and a gyro addon. Could that be made into a quadcopter control board? Not for this one. But in general.