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Help! Fly Sky users Beware!

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#1
Aus rules currently require that RC model aircraft be setup and operated in what is the safest possible manner at ALL times and any resulting legal liabilities are the sole responsibility of the operator, (The LAW)! There is NO defence in the old "Orders are Orders" argument and the regulations state that any club rules should be ignored if they conflict with the regulations. There was also a published advisory written in conjunction with the old school National Associations. According to the regulators, the advisory is only a guilde and it can be ignored in part or in total if it conflicts with the safest possible operation of the model. There are other laws, of course, around the proximity to buildings and people in line with the remainder of the world!

My view on the regulations is that they apply to me personally and my operation of my radio equipment. I use FlySky and it was not my first radio system choice. My first choices were made without consideration of much other than price and so I threw those systems away along with all of their receivers after struggling for over a year to get them to work.

Through much research I chose a radio with inbuilt telemetry and a menu driven failsafe setting procedure. I had spent a lot of time observing the local expert and the club rank and file using a variety of Spektrum equipment and LOS and flyaways were rampant, (they still occur but not because of the Radio itself but rather because the local and self-appointed Spektrum expert is as knowledgable about spektrum safe setups as is my youngest grandson)!

A few years ago, before the new regualtions came into force I tried to demonstrate a safer setup and handling procedure and well I unleashed a monster. The tirades of temper displays and abuse commenced and has never ceased. Eventually I became a club mentor and even a flight instructor but I steered carefully around the "Spektrum" radio user members as "He" is the expert!

Well from that date when any radio operator had an inadvertent motor due to incorrect setup, (always Spektrum users and caused by poor failsafe setup), I was blamed and it was pointed out that using my handling procedure, (What Spektrum refers to as Smart Safe), is dangerous. Mind you Spektrum states it is very safe and I agree after three years of using it. So I became a scape goat and whipping boy for the expert, (also the club secretary). I joined the committee and set about trying to provide better help and support for the membership.

Anyway the local national association introduced volentary "Competency testing" but the self-appointed and somewhat technically illiterate "Expert" framed the test around HIS specific operating requirements and the NOT LAW "Advisory", rather than the safest possible operation, (He also framed the test such that it suited Spektrum users alone and there was no requirement to even test the fail safe before flight). In addition the Spektrum "Push buttom" range test became mandatory for ALL radio systems.

He has since, (because I objected to the Brand specific test, club imposed rules, by him), told me that if I refuse to follow his test rules I will never be adjudged as competent and neither will anyone I have taught. In addition he has made the rule that TELEMETRY is not allowed for range testing as it is unsafe! Finally, (and in public), I was told that I will NEVER pass any competency test and he is to be the sole tester in my case and he will never judge me as competent! Mind you as an instructor, mentor, builder, repairer, and even a source for maiden flight trimming and setup for newbies, my actual flight skills are not lacking!

This demanded operation procedure is against the national regualtor laws and so there is a catch 22, or lose-lose situation in such a situation. If I follow the porcedure I break the law and if I follow the law I cannot ever pass! During my efforts to have the issue settled with the National Association I copied the national regulator into the email stream and the club ended up being asked by the regulator for the details on ALL Fly-Aways and LOS events that have occured in the past 2 years. Now as usual the blame is all mine! Mind you incident reporting by the club is a mandatory legal requirement and the Committee's responsibility to ensure that all incidents are reported!

A conference of committee members has been called but they refuse to supply any agenda so I suspect is to be punative in my direction even though it is the club rules that are not legal, and designed to exclude anyone not using Spektrum, (and in a specified manner). The matter at hand is as to whether the club has the right to over rule National Regulatory requirements!

Just to add to the whole mix is that I am a lifetime, (FULL), member of the local Veterans association and I have chosen the FlySky radio as a platform for single-handed 6 channel radio control usage for veterans and other amputees, and the use of Telemetry because it removes the requirement for the long walk to test the radio performance, (vital for those with difficulty walking or who are wheelchair bound). Under the club rules such a system is prohibited from any possibility of ever being assessed as competent regardless of the ability to fly!

Under the test rules unless you use Spektrum radios, (safe setup is not necessary or tested), you are excluded from a volentary and effectively trivial assessment. If you strictly adhere to the national regulations, (regardless of the radio brand), you are similarly banned from competency testing. All those battling disabilities including veterans are also excluded!

If you have an opinion against my stance or think that I am the one making unrealistic demands, please post it here so that I may be educated as to my folly and if you find the rules imposed, for what is not a legal requirement, appear to just be a matter of exercising power then you can let them know on Facebook "BNEMAC". The national Association is "AMAS"!

Call this a plea for a type of crowd funding that does not require a single cent! The permanent prohibition on competency testing imposed upon me was made in a fit of temper and in front of witnesses!

Have fun (I can't here).
 

JasonK

Well-known member
#2
Not sure what is happening here, but I must ask, How are fly away's happening at all? any reasonable receiver should zero out the throttle channel on loss of signal.

I would ask if you could go to a different local group, as it sounds like this one doesn't actually care about competence, but it sounds like that might not be an option in your case?
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#3
Not sure what is happening here, but I must ask, How are fly away's happening at all? any reasonable receiver should zero out the throttle channel on loss of signal.

I would ask if you could go to a different local group, as it sounds like this one doesn't actually care about competence, but it sounds like that might not be an option in your case?
The Fly-Aways, (and the occasional inadvertent motor starts), Simply because the "Expert" cannot follow the different types of Fail Safe setting used on the Spektrum and other DSMX receivers. As he cannot or does not wish to assist the Spektrum users to set their failsafe properly he has MANDATED a Tx on First and it MUST remain on until the model battery is removed! (A stipulation of his test requirements).

Effectively he does not properly understand how to use failsafe and therefore it is not even a basic safety requirement and it is not tested prior to flight as part of the pre-flight testing! If you get caught testing it you will possibly incur his wrath and abuse.

The result of this is simply that improperly failsafe settings are far to common and his guidance on even the setting of the antennas of radio antennas for best range and operation is also stunted. Net result Fly-Aways.

As for the antenna issue I have observed a model having control difficulty which survived and landed after a short flight having the LOS indication, (flashing), indicate 6 LOS events in a 2 minute maiden! The result or comment from the expert was something akin to "You were lucky" and no other comment or assistance was forthcoming.

Later I was contacted, (so that the expert did not know of it), and I showed the pilot how to fit the Rx for best performance and now that pilot avoids the expert entirely, (when it comes to any problems). He is not the only one! According to the expert I am "Dangerous and I know nothing of worth". I asked one of my students to ask the "Expert" to test his setup using the FlySky radio. The "expert" flew way beyond the normal flight boundaries and could not get the radio to exhibit any LOS. Later the "Expert" took one of his expertly setup radios on a similar flight path , (at slightly less range), and he lost control of his model and crashed in to powerlines. My students and I laughed but we were careful to observe his antics at a distance.

Fly-aways cannot happen if the radio is setup correctly but do if you follow the mandated handling procedures of the now MANDATED competency test! Effectively every competent pilot has be judged not on their knowledge of setups but rather on their ability to follow the requirements of the "Expert".

No failsafe testing is the enabler for fly-aways!

No fun for some!
 

JasonK

Well-known member
#4
well... sounds like the best solution is to test the LOS behavior not at the field (say in your house) and make sure it works before going to the field. Sounds like said expert is just upset that someone knows more about how to setup stuff safely then they do. I recall having something like that happening at work... there was this long multi-team troubleshooting on how to fix an issue that we kept having... I went and read the manual (I was a lowly repair tech at the time) for the equipment that was having issues... changed a test item based on the configuration called out by the manual and _fixed_ the issue... needless to say there was huge fall out between multiple teams in the company because the fix basically proved the team that was responsible for setting the 'this is the correct way to do it' was wrong.

Hopefully you have some way of getting said 'expert' removed from their role and replaced with someone who can take criticism.
 

JasonK

Well-known member
#5
that said... I haven't seen both sides of the story, so perhapse some new information would change my point of view here.
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#6
that said... I haven't seen both sides of the story, so perhapse some new information would change my point of view here.
I am unsure what new information would suit.
My battle against the Expert is simply a matter of my requesting to make the competency testing available to all club members regardless of the radio system used, and his blanket refusal!

Apart from the obvious flying skills being demonstrated, I am trying to have Smart Safe setups where the Rx can be powered up before the transmitter to be ALLOWED as well as the use of the Rx signal performance reported by TELEMETRY to be used to judge the radio signal performance.

The Smart Safe setup is safe according to the Engineers at Spektrum and according to my continous use of it for three or more years. My students also use it and combined we have never had an issue in flying our models! I raised the matter with the National regulator directly and was informed that there are a multitude safe setup techniques that are legal as long as the safest possible setup is used, regardless of the radio brand and features. The club mandated test is brand specific and does not allow for even the testing of a safe setup before flying.

For the past three years I have been requesting to have my setup and operation to be tested within the club but there has been a continuous refusal to evaluate anything for safe or safer operation. Now with the new regulations requiring the operator to assume full responsibility for the model's safest operation he is unable to apply any pressure to enforce his views on what is safe, (a direct regulatory authority ruling), he is able to maintain the stance in the non-regulatory optional flight competency testing. Still there is no attempt to assess any other setup or any alternate radio system for safety!

Under the regulations the sole responsibility for the model setup and operation is held by the operator! The operator is able to select and use any radio system they wish to and club rules and manual instructions are not a legal excuse or mitigating factor. The regulator's campaign is called, "Know your Drone".

My view is that any competency test should be about competence and the safe operation of the model and not related to the brand of radio that you use!
 

JasonK

Well-known member
#7
My view is that any competency test should be about competence and the safe operation of the model and not related to the brand of radio that you use!
100% here, if it requires a specific (and what appears to be one of, if not the most, expensive) brand, then it isn't a good test.

Is there a process to get the local club to change who handles various roles? or other clubs in reasonable range of you?
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#8
100% here, if it requires a specific (and what appears to be one of, if not the most, expensive) brand, then it isn't a good test.

Is there a process to get the local club to change who handles various roles? or other clubs in reasonable range of you?
You might think so in any normal club but this person has a political nature and actively cultivates followers and supporters! Anyone who crosses him is on the outer. He has a history of rule making to suit his opinions and preferences. I am a knowledge driven technologist with a reliance upon proof and testing. Sometimes I can be much too technical for some!

He used to be an aircraft maintence engineer for an airline, (do not think just follow the manual or procedure), I spent my life working in Electronics and communications with being required to investigate and solve equipment/application problems, correct manuals, and teach others. I was also the first Wireless equipment engineer, (2.4GHz Spread Spectrum), in my part of Australia, (1991).

Officially he has vast experience knows everything there is to know and I know nothing regardless of any research I do, what the manufacturers state or my ability to provide proof!

I was flying in the area before we met and being without motorised transport the area I fly is limited. Actually if a model was to do a fly-away from the local field it could fly over where I reside easily long before the battery was exhausted! I do not claim to know everything and am forever learning and researching but I do know how to setup and operate my radio safely.
 

Bricks

Well-known member
#11
I have read most of your posts you have put up about this subject and I am still a bit confused as too what you are actually doing for fail safe as I only know of 2 on a normal receiver. Spektrum LOS cuts power and holds last inputs with out any input from user as far as setting up receiver. The other is cut power ( or preset throttle ) and set control surfaces to a predesignated position.. Plugging in receiver first should not arm ESC, turning on Spektrum transmitter will not power up with throttle in any position but down and give warning. Now I have run into a few ESC`s using Spektrum that if you do not change the low throttle end point will start the motor at low RPM when initiated. How it comes about if you have a throttle cut switch set and throttle cut is set to on when intializng the receiver then flip the switch to throttle cut off.

What an I missing here.
 

leaded50

Well-known member
#12
whatever discussions in a club, how it function, take up subjects in meetings. If demoractic voting says its ok as is, then if want a change need get enough voting members to agree for changes..
If the club aint as that (membermeetings, voting. eg..) well.... then your screwed without chance to change it.
If local club wanna follow own rules, not national... make case for voting.
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#13
I have read most of your posts you have put up about this subject and I am still a bit confused as too what you are actually doing for fail safe as I only know of 2 on a normal receiver. Spektrum LOS cuts power and holds last inputs with out any input from user as far as setting up receiver. The other is cut power ( or preset throttle ) and set control surfaces to a predesignated position.. Plugging in receiver first should not arm ESC, turning on Spektrum transmitter will not power up with throttle in any position but down and give warning. Now I have run into a few ESC`s using Spektrum that if you do not change the low throttle end point will start the motor at low RPM when initiated. How it comes about if you have a throttle cut switch set and throttle cut is set to on when intializng the receiver then flip the switch to throttle cut off.

What an I missing here.
The Failsafe settings on my radio are set by Menu in the Tx and so I do not suffer from Failsafe confusion, what I set is What I get!

Sadly the Spektrum users are hampered through a lack of knowledge, "on the part of the self professed expert" and the fact that Genuine receivers support 2 different versions of Failsafe, (most), and the various other brands of DSMX rxs can introduce more variations.

It appears that the expert has resorted to the old analogue day methods of Tx safety and ignores the failsafe requirements! Now consider that there are children's playgrounds just beyond a line of trees at one site and the other is a public park/sportsground in a residential area.
He has lost his power to the regulator but cannot let go so he makes stupid, dangerous, and illegal rule imposts, often vexatiously, and then sets about enforcing them. I know how to enforce safety from outside the club, - the safest being NO CLUB. If necessary the fool, his rule book, and his band of followers can find somewhere else to fly!

Like most countries Modellers here are "Tolerated" by the authorities and we are all in the same boat but fools like this are drilling holes in the hull!
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#14
whatever discussions in a club, how it function, take up subjects in meetings. If demoractic voting says its ok as is, then if want a change need get enough voting members to agree for changes..
If the club aint as that (membermeetings, voting. eg..) well.... then your screwed without chance to change it.
If local club wanna follow own rules, not national... make case for voting.
Meetings? Oh you mean those things where he makes a rule!

Seriously the fool is the secretary and in the entire time I have been a member including my time on the committee I have never been provided with a copy of any meeting minutes. In addition there is no meeting agendas ever provided. Meetings are generally held at the end of the flying time and so most are just in a hurry to go home. Almost everything that is proposed is approved simply because there is no time for any opposing views to be discussed.

The only committee member meeting for which I received a notification was held years ago and just after the current issue first arose. The venue was a long way from the fields and at the home of the fool. I was not walking into the lion's den! For this round The matter was raised via email and I immediately objected, One committee member did a little limited research into what I said and passed this, (somewhat supportive information), onto the fool, of course it was ignored and the impost was made unaltered!
 

Bricks

Well-known member
#15
The Failsafe settings on my radio are set by Menu in the Tx and so I do not suffer from Failsafe confusion, what I set is What I get!

Sadly the Spektrum users are hampered through a lack of knowledge, "on the part of the self professed expert" and the fact that Genuine receivers support 2 different versions of Failsafe, (most), and the various other brands of DSMX rxs can introduce more variations.

It appears that the expert has resorted to the old analogue day methods of Tx safety and ignores the failsafe requirements! Now consider that there are children's playgrounds just beyond a line of trees at one site and the other is a public park/sportsground in a residential area.
He has lost his power to the regulator but cannot let go so he makes stupid, dangerous, and illegal rule imposts, often vexatiously, and then sets about enforcing them. I know how to enforce safety from outside the club, - the safest being NO CLUB. If necessary the fool, his rule book, and his band of followers can find somewhere else to fly!

Like most countries Modellers here are "Tolerated" by the authorities and we are all in the same boat but fools like this are drilling holes in the hull!
So are you saying that besides Spektrum non of the other radio manufactures have a built in automatic failsafe when LOS happens? I do not know any of my DSMX DSMS receivers be it Lemon , Orange, and other off brands that I have used all have the built in Failsafe LOS throttle goes to 0 and last command held.
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#16
So are you saying that besides Spektrum non of the other radio manufactures have a built in automatic failsafe when LOS happens? I do not know any of my DSMX DSMS receivers be it Lemon , Orange, and other off brands that I have used all have the built in Failsafe LOS throttle goes to 0 and last command held.
I am saying that other brands of radio have a simple method of setting failsafe and that individual channels can be included or excluded at your selection. There is also the ability to set none! NO confusion possible and no accidental setup errors for beginners!

Under the "Expert" the confusion got too much for his limited understanding and so he does not require or even permit any failsafe testing with his rule Tx on first and off last! As you will be aware you test failsafe operation by turning the Tx off with the Rx powered up! As a result I have observed 3 fly-aways, (left the field to never be recovered)!

He will accept no other procedure!
 

Arcfyre

Well-known member
#17
Fail-safes and radio brand specific range tests are an issue, but they pale in comparison to the issue of this toxic club member in a position of power.

If you're patient enough, @Hai-Lee , the problem will work itself out. Eventually enough of your students will spread the word that he is incompetent, and his power will slowly fade. In the meantime you are probably best served by doing your own thing, and letting people learn by your example of technical know how and skill. In a club environment like yours, it's easy to tell the truly experienced and helpful veterans from the know it all wannabes. Give it some time a and try not to let your frustrations cut into your flying enjoyment.
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#18
Fail-safes and radio brand specific range tests are an issue, but they pale in comparison to the issue of this toxic club member in a position of power.

If you're patient enough, @Hai-Lee , the problem will work itself out. Eventually enough of your students will spread the word that he is incompetent, and his power will slowly fade. In the meantime you are probably best served by doing your own thing, and letting people learn by your example of technical know how and skill. In a club environment like yours, it's easy to tell the truly experienced and helpful veterans from the know it all wannabes. Give it some time a and try not to let your frustrations cut into your flying enjoyment.
Whilst I have indured this fool's anger and temper displays, (something for which he is well renown), for many years, It was the vexatious rule imposition/s that directly effected my students and their aspirations combined with his public and loud berration, (belittling attack) on a young club member who made a simple mistake, (as we all do from time to time), that crossed the line forever! If the young club member had been one of my grandchildren his mail would need to be addressed to the local hospital and mine to the local prison!

He has/had no right in both situations! I do often long for the simpler dispute settling methods of earlier times!
 

leaded50

Well-known member
#19
Meetings? Oh you mean those things where he makes a rule!

Seriously the fool is the secretary and in the entire time I have been a member including my time on the committee I have never been provided with a copy of any meeting minutes. In addition there is no meeting agendas ever provided. Meetings are generally held at the end of the flying time and so most are just in a hurry to go home. Almost everything that is proposed is approved simply because there is no time for any opposing views to be discussed.

The only committee member meeting for which I received a notification was held years ago and just after the current issue first arose. The venue was a long way from the fields and at the home of the fool. I was not walking into the lion's den! For this round The matter was raised via email and I immediately objected, One committee member did a little limited research into what I said and passed this, (somewhat supportive information), onto the fool, of course it was ignored and the impost was made unaltered!
Aaahh, your screwed. The fools gonna lead the club til they dont want it, thats said, if you get enough other members to protest, it perhaps can be changed.... if not, nothing to do. Douchbags you find in any part of society, when they are in lead of something, and main members want it like it.... difficult to do something. ( without show finger, and find a better club)

If its not an organized club... take it up with the other members/users, and even owner of the place.
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#20
Aaahh, your screwed. The fools gonna lead the club til they dont want it, thats said, if you get enough other members to protest, it perhaps can be changed.... if not, nothing to do. Douchbags you find in any part of society, when they are in lead of something, and main members want it like it.... difficult to do something. ( without show finger, and find a better club)

If its not an organized club... take it up with the other members/users, and even owner of the place.
Now you see the real issue but add that I am not adverse at getting external intervention even from the Federal regualtors. The regualtor has stated/ruled that the fool has no power to make rules that require the Regulations to be overruled! My submissions to the regualtor on the safe operation of radio equipment have been received with thanks! The fool also, (in anger), confirmed my safety breach allegations though he is too angry to recognise it. The club's very existence is on the line and he does not even now want to review his rules in the light of the enjoyment of the membership and the true safety of the public!

The club is already divided because of the fool and previously lost a number of members! Already I have been offered alternate flying sites with free transport if required but this fool must not be allowed to make rules endangering the public, (to suit his ego), which will effect the image of the entire hobby!

He has already cost the club a lot. I refuse to tesch anyone who cannot be allowed to use the safest possible setup! I used to do repairs and rebuilds for the club members free of charge - No longer a service! I used to make FB planes for free, (at my own expense for club members), service ceased. I also used to carry spare parts like servos, props, and even motors for free distribution. Finally I used to pass along my retail foamies to club members when I got bored with thyem but I would rather crush them now!

Obviously the fool is more interested in giving orders thanhe is for the club membership or its welfare! He will rule the club to its death!