FTFC'18 WWII - Giant Scale Flapjack

localfiend

I like 3D printers...
Mentor
So, I'm still working out the viability of this, but I'd like to build a Giant Flapjack at FliteFest this year. I'm thinking I'll scale up my current design by 240% (as that keeps all the parts on no more than 2 sheets of foamboard). That'l give me a wingspan of right around 60 inches, which should look pretty darned cool up in the air. Bomb drop could be interesting as well. :D

Now a 60" wingspan plane might not sound that big, but that's a pretty darned big flying circle. It's also got 39 sheets worth of parts, and a wing area of 3,110 square inches.
Giant Flapjack Foamboard.png


Now lets move on to preliminary weight calculations. 39 sheets of foamboard is right around 4,680grams. There's a lot of waste. I'm going to be conservative and only cut the weight by 1/3. So that's 3088 grams. Now, 60% of the remaining parts are going to have the paper removed from one side, which will drop the weight of those parts by 20%. That'l put the weight of the base airframe at 2700 grams, which is probably a bit high. Add about 1300 grams with of electronics, wiring, and batteries and you get a weight of 4000 grams. Pretty darned light. I can imagine that the weight could go up a bit once I factor in landing gear and some reinforcments, but even if I add another 1000 grams that's not an issue.

If the plane weighs in at 5000 grams, it's have a wing loading of 8.17 oz. sq/ft, or a wing cubic loading of 1.8. That's super light glider or indoor free flight territory lol.

The other big consideration here, is that at a 60" wingspan, scale prop size is 40 inches. o_O

I don't have the electronics handy to drive a prop that size, but I can do 20 inches with 4 blades, or 26 inches with 2 after manufacturing a gearbox. The problem with these prop sizes, is that you need a lot of pitch to get any kind of airspeed at the RPM's I'll be able to drive props that size. Nobody makes big props with enough pitch, so right now I'm currently 3D printing a 20.5x20.5x4 blade prop with an APC E curve I designed in fusion360. It may end in an explosion, but it's worth doing if only for the laughs.





In order to to be able to spin props above 16 inches with the motors I have (Sunnysky x3520-6 720kv), I'll be needing a gearbox. I've also got something I think might work drawn up, and am going to start 3D printing it in polycarbonate as soon as my printer with an enclosure is done printing other stuff. The current gearset gives me 2.3 to 1 reduction.

 

wilmracer

I build things that fly (sometimes)
Mentor
Perfect size! Good luck with the printed props too. I'll be watching with a LOT of interest :)
 

localfiend

I like 3D printers...
Mentor
Perfect size! Good luck with the printed props too. I'll be watching with a LOT of interest :)

I'm starting to think that if I'm going to go to all this trouble, that making this thing work with scale props would be the most fun. I really think the plane will behave differently with a proper set of giant props and you don't get to play with something like this very often.

So I'm looking into the expense and safety of running 40 inch props. The 20.5 inch prop finished printing last night, I'll get some pics and a report on that this evening, but it taught me a lot about what needs to change. I'm starting to think the easiest and cheapest way to get 40 inch props is to copy some of the adjustable pitch setups out there. I can either 3D print the hub and the props, or do a combination with my CNC machine. I'll have to see if it's super expensive to source beech wood.

Whatever I come up with will have to be rigorously stress tested. I don't want a prop that size to fail with the crowd close by.
 

wilmracer

I build things that fly (sometimes)
Mentor
You might take a look at how Damon Atwood created the custom carbon fiber props for his big C130. You might be able to use a printed version for a mold and then make the assembly. A lot of work for sure but would be very cool. I imagine you wouldn't need very high RPMs either.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
I think once you have a viable printed prop you can go thru the process of making a "mold" with hardened resin so you can lay out your own carbon fiber props down the road. A friend of mine does hand carving for miniatures for gaming. Then he makes a rubber mold and casts the items in resin to be later painted. I think if you used a hard resin instead of the rubber for the mold that could easily be used and re used to make props from carbon fiber. You could probably add in air holes for the vacuum forming part of the process right into the mold as well I would think.
 

localfiend

I like 3D printers...
Mentor
You might take a look at how Damon Atwood created the custom carbon fiber props for his big C130. You might be able to use a printed version for a mold and then make the assembly. A lot of work for sure but would be very cool. I imagine you wouldn't need very high RPMs either.

I think once you have a viable printed prop you can go thru the process of making a "mold" with hardened resin so you can lay out your own carbon fiber props down the road. A friend of mine does hand carving for miniatures for gaming. Then he makes a rubber mold and casts the items in resin to be later painted. I think if you used a hard resin instead of the rubber for the mold that could easily be used and re used to make props from carbon fiber. You could probably add in air holes for the vacuum forming part of the process right into the mold as well I would think.

Good tips. I looked up Damon Atwood's stuff, here's a video of his showing his process.


I'm not sure if I want to go to all of that trouble. I'm wondering if I couldn't just print a blade, then cover with carbon fiber and vaccum bag it. Seems like it could possibly save me a ton of time. On the other hand, I could very easily 3d print, or CNC machine a prop mold. No need to mess around with clay.


I wasn't happy with how my first giant printed prop came out, mostly issues with the shape of my 3D model. So I chopped up a 12x8 APC prop to get the profiles to better replicate the shape in fusion. APC might not be the most efficient, but they're quite beefy in the high stress areas.









Printed this up last night and tested this morning on 3S. It's been resized to 8x5.3 to fit on my foamboard Devastator as well as the FT Shinden when using a C-Pack.







It came out very well. Just a little trouble on the very thinnest bits of the trailing edge and tip. I'm considering beefing that up with a square sweep profile that can easily be cut or sanded off so you end up with a perfect prop.

I tested it on both 3s and 4s batteries this morning. Not a bit of a problem, and is surprisingly quiet, though you do get the whine most multiblade props seem to have.

Here's a short clip of it going on 3S


4s clip is still uploading, my internet is slow. Draws 23 amps on 3s, and 29.5 on 4s. Don't think I'd want to fly it on 4s with this power setup, it'l cook the motor. 3S is pushing it.

I really need to rig up some sort of thrust gauge. Would be fun to fine tune a prop for thrust and efficiency.
 
Hey Localfiend Lets talk. I really like the flapjack project and I'd like to help out. I professionally do composites work as part of my day job and have a ton of gear for working with composites.
 

localfiend

I like 3D printers...
Mentor
Hey Localfiend Lets talk. I really like the flapjack project and I'd like to help out. I professionally do composites work as part of my day job and have a ton of gear for working with composites.

Awesome, sent you a PM, or a started a conversation as the new forum software defines it. I really don't have much composite experience. Only just tried fiberglass for the first time on a plane last night. I appreciate help from wherever I can get it so thanks.

Also, I should have mentioned in the first post, that anyone who wants to help with the actual build at flitefest can join in. For a lot of this bigger stuff, a second/third pair of hands can really help out. A couple years ago when I built the giant PBY a lot of people dropped by and were very helpful, and it's always fun to meet and talk to new people.

ETA:

Here's the current power system specs I'm playing with in ecalc. A turnigy SK3 6354-260 KV motor. A batch of 3S batteries wired to 6S. A 3 to 1 gear or pully drive system. And a 40x26.6 prop. RPM will be quite low.

Giant Flapjack Prop Calcs - 40x26.6.png
 

foamtest

Toothpick glider kid
I can’t promise anything but during my volunteer time in the build tents I will try and help as much as I can if I am not wrapped up in another awesome project.
 

localfiend

I like 3D printers...
Mentor
I can’t promise anything but during my volunteer time in the build tents I will try and help as much as I can if I am not wrapped up in another awesome project.

Heh, we should set up a rotating schedule so that everybody can have a hand in helping out with all the crazy builds lol.
 

localfiend

I like 3D printers...
Mentor
Ok, so things are getting a bit crazy with trying to drive 40" props. I've been talking to Triple Ace 2142 and we've got some testing to do, but I'm hopeful that 3D printed polycarbonate blades coated in carbon fiber will work out.

Since I'm going to be a needing a bit more power, weights are going to need to change. Not only motor and gearbox weight, but the weight of the props themselves becomes a factor. I'm also thinking that I may run a central spar of some sort through the plane that the motor pod structure can be bolted to. I don't want those to rip off lol.

Since I may be adding some weight, I wanted to better nail down the weight of the base airframe. I got surface area figures for all the parts with paper on both sides, as well as parts where paper will be removed from both. From that, I calculated foamboard weight, something that I've found to be very accurate. I'm probably only off by a few grams in either direction.

Total Dollar Tree Foam Weight: 2070.8 grams
Hot glue (5% of foamboard weight is generous): 80g
4 Bladed Props Weight Estimate (x2): 1500 g (I still need to draw the scale props and come up with something more accurate, and hopefully lighter)
Turnigy Aerodrive SK3 - 6354-260KV (x2): 964 g
5000mah 3s 20C batteries (x4): 1616g
HK Red Brick 100A ESC: 216g
HXT 5010 Digital Servo (x5): 195g
Servo Horns, Wire, Extensions: 200g
Gearboxes: 300g (I hope)
Wood/Carbon Spar: 250 g
Landing Gear, Wheels, Tires: 500 g
Misc and Underestimation: 500g

With a bit of padding, that puts me at 7691.8 grams or 16.95lbs. Heavier than I originally planned for, but still not bad at all. Wing loading is 12.6oz per square inch, or 2.7WCL. That's still firmly in light glider territory. I'm also estimating that one motor is more than enough to get this thing in the air, so a bit of additional reinforcement could be in order. If I have time, maybe the disc could be coated with packing tape or something.
 

localfiend

I like 3D printers...
Mentor
Here's what I'm looking at for prop/motor/flight specs. Downgrading prop size to 38". I don't think that will affect the looks any, it's only a 5% reduction. Saves me a ton of cash and weight rather than stepping up to the next motor size category.
Giant Flapjack Prop Calcs - 38x29.png
 

Morgan

Active member
It's been resized to 8x5.3 to fit on my foamboard Devastator as well as the FT Shinden when using a C-Pack.

Wait wait ft shindin how have I not seen the plans for this yet!!!??