McGoogle Projects

I have made about fifty of these, this is the latest iteration. I don't have a scale so I don't know how much it weighs, but it feels about right. Maybe knowing the actual numbers would mess it up! I would guess at about 5.5 ounces, and the wingspan measures 36" straight across with an 11" chord at the center, 8" chord at the break just beyond the mid-point, and 5.5" chord at the tip.

The airfoil is a modified SC-17 at with a small amount of twist at the wingtips for a little extra stability. The winglet mounts are lightweight PLA. I also have some printed in PETG but we're going to see how they hold up after some throw & catch sessions.. they're very small so I imagine warping isn't going to be too much of a problem.

Speaking of the winglets, they are set back to provide extra yaw stability for discus and side-arm launches while making room for my hand. I've seen this on other flying wing DLG's and I really love the look of it.. I'm waiting for the evening to come around so I can catch the glass off at the park and try it out.
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Well things are weird these days even the weather what can ya do? What a heat wave! I removed some wing roots from the print bed made out of lightweight PLA. These are meant to provide a nice stable surface for wings to be joined to a fuselage or center section on other projects... I'm working with hot wire cut EPP and I'm finding that almost no matter what I do, at some point after laminating the wing or down the line, the wing root inevitably warps and bends inward at either the leading or trailing edge - causing an unsightly gap where the wings are joined. Moving to 1.9 lb foam improves the situation, and of course more carbon will as well, and having a thicker airfoil helps as well, but those are all sacrifices I do not want to make.

The honeycomb structure and 10mm thickness should provide a little more stability, although temperature is still a concern. However, if the temperature is hot enough to melt or severely warp the PLA, then it's also hot enough to disturb the EPP, laminate, and other adhesives, so we live by the rule of not storing our planes in hot cars or garages because it's a bad practice no matter what with most plastics. Even the laminate has a hot glue base, and if you use ultracoat or monokote you also wind up with warped planes. If you've built a flite test plane then you know if you use hot glue for foam board then it's also going to come apart in a hot car. I believe however that these parts will be less susceptible to warping and melting due to the natural insulation from the foaming property of the LW PLA as well as the support granted by the more temperature stable foam and adhesive they are attached to. These parts aren't meant to take a load and will have PETG inserts that go through the foam core situated closely to carbon, through the holes, to accept carbon joiner pieces.

I print the PETG inserts (joiner tube sleeves) at a high temperature with no fan speed to improve layer adhesion, and then rely on the carbon spars they are next to & the foam itself as well as the adhesive used to glue in the joiner tube sleeve to further improve that layer adhesion and stability. It's really fantastic that the joiner sleeves work because trying to find matching joiner tubes and sleeves through other means is a quest and a half.

These are 8" modified sc17's and 6 grams a piece LW PLA @ 50% flow rate & 245 degrees. SC17 is an airfoil designed aerobatics using gliders with tails but also turns out to be a really fantastic flying wing airfoil with amazing pitch response. I adjusted the bottom curve slightly to generate less pressure on the top bringing the profile closer to an RG15/PW51 while attempting to maintain symmetry with regard to the proportionality of curves & incidence. The idea is to make it "feel" different when its right side up vs. inverted in order to avoid a disorientation effect often encountered with fully symmetrical airfoils where the plane and sometimes the pilot can't figure out if they want to go up or down. I think that planning twist in EPP is a futile effort and prefer to iron it in. There's something to be said for "paper airplane" style trimming when working with materials that will never be precise no matter how many measurements you take and jigs you make.




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It seemed to fly well but when I gave it a full power launch one of the wing tips flew off, and when I went to pick it up after that eventful flight the other wingtip mount broke in half. The first mount flew off, they're just glued to the edges with a small amount of laminate removed. I was confident that the porous and flexible nature of the LW PLA combined with the EPP would allow excellent adhesion using just medium CA but that was incorrect. The piece popped off easily enough with just the force from the launch. I'm going to try a redesign and include some 1.5mm CF as reinforcement within channels in the mount going through the layers, and probably make them from PETG because the weight difference is negligible. I thought about printing them in different orientations but decided I would still have breakage problems just in a different direction, so I think carbon fiber longitudinal stabilizers are going to do the trick. Then securing them tight enough that they won't fall off, but not so embedded within the foam that if you have to replace the mounts then the foam gets destroyed is the next problem. If I embed them instead of using them to cap the wing tip then they become difficult or impossible to remove and replace. If I leave them capped then I have to rely on the adhesion between the petg and the foam surface. I can't compromise aesthetically either, so sticking it on with something like fiber tape is a no-go. I'm going to try a 5mil thick piece of laminate to make an ergonomic cap for the winglet mount at the wing tip both to improve the grip and help keep the winglet attached. If it grinds down from wingtip to pavement kind of wear, it can be replaced with packing tape.

I decided to print out more wing mounting/connector pieces so we're grounded until those are finished printing and I can try for more winglet mounts.. it's too bad because the conditions were calm.
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Piotrsko

Master member
Pretty sure you find out really quick that you're inverted unless you're flying my KFM which prefers inverted under power. Waaaay to much upthrust.
 
Pretty sure you find out really quick that you're inverted unless you're flying my KFM which prefers inverted under power. Waaaay to much upthrust.

Well that way you can make it look like you're really good at flying inverted!

While halfway between dream world and the real world I realized I can print these DLG winglet mounts longitudinally (flat on the bed instead of vertical) and reinforce the layers with small pieces of 1.5mm carbon. This will result in both faster prints, less carbon, less weight, and I think greater overall strength. I am hoping no adjustments will need to be made while printing in this orientation but gravity has the final say..

So on the agenda for today:

*Print winglet mounts in both LW PLA & PETG before evening
*Begin work on a smaller and lighter version (28") utilizing 3.7g-5g servos with embedded LED lights
*Continue work 3d printing parts for wing joiner system, primarily joiner sleeves from PETG
 
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SSgt Duramax

Junior Member
I finally got lw pla printing well, it is surprisingly strong once you get good adhesion. I found printing with a .2 layer height and fan off gives the best result for my personal printer, ymmv. E6000 bonds to epp very well. On my epp wing, I was having difficulty with my motor mount which was CA'ed on falling off. Once I switched to E6000 which I used with the rest of the plane it was a non issue. Not sure how E6000 interacts with PLA but it might be worth trying.
 
I finally got lw pla printing well, it is surprisingly strong once you get good adhesion. I found printing with a .2 layer height and fan off gives the best result for my personal printer, ymmv. E6000 bonds to epp very well. On my epp wing, I was having difficulty with my motor mount which was CA'ed on falling off. Once I switched to E6000 which I used with the rest of the plane it was a non issue. Not sure how E6000 interacts with LW PLA but it might be worth trying.

The fumes are too much for me with those goop style adhesives. I'm designing this so that I can build a hundred of them and the fumes sort of add up after a while. It's funny, I was playing metal gear solid 2 the other night and they mentioned using Toluene as a mind control agent. Obviously just a video game but it is some pretty noxious stuff, and I always feel funny after using it even with ventilation, then of course there's the cure time. It's too bad because thinned goop is pretty sweet.

I agree that the LW PLA layer adhesion is fantastic for the most part, however it's still not enough to keep these tiny parts together when printed vertically. You can see where the part broke in the picture above, along the layer line, usually a non-issue but because there just isn't a lot of surface area there it makes sense. I've found spectacular results with it when printing stuff like DLG fuselages, really really impressive. Make no mistake these winglet mounts take a lot of force, expecting the LW PLA to work at all printed in that configuration was a compliment to the nature of the material.

LW PLA & Goop (or e6000) do adhere very well to each other and the PLA doesn't melt. Out of curiosity when you say you are printing with a .2 layer height, are you also adjusting the flow rate? What temperature?
 
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SSgt Duramax

Junior Member
The fumes are too much for me with those goop style adhesives. I'm designing this so that I can build a hundred of them and the fumes sort of add up after a while. It's funny, I was playing metal gear solid 2 the other night and they mentioned using Toluene as a mind control agent. Obviously just a video game but it is some pretty noxious stuff, and I always feel funny after using it even with ventilation, then of course there's the cure time. It's too bad because thinned goop is pretty sweet.

I agree that the LW PLA layer adhesion is fantastic for the most part, however it's still not enough to keep these tiny parts together when printed vertically. You can see where the part broke in the picture above, along the layer line, usually a non-issue but because there just isn't a lot of surface area there it makes sense. I've found spectacular results with it when printing stuff like DLG fuselages, really really impressive. Make no mistake these winglet mounts take a lot of force, expecting the LW PLA to work at all printed in that configuration was a compliment to the nature of the material.

LW PLA & Goop (or e6000) do adhere very well to each other and the PLA doesn't melt. Out of curiosity when you say you are printing with a .2 layer height, are you also adjusting the flow rate? What temperature?
I am printing at I think 60% flow rate, I would have to get back home to check. I am also printing at 230 degrees. The parts end up a little heavier than spec, but not a whole lot (maybe 10 percent heavier). I'll see if I have a pic.

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After a few evenings of testing the previous wing and securing a good winglet solution I decided to put it up for sale because I wanted something smaller, that would light up so I could fly in the calm night air - there isn't enough room in my place to have all of the planes I make so every time I make a new one I have to let another one go. I like the idea of an extremely efficient and capable SAL flingy toy. The old 2000's hotwired EPP Alula did a good job of being this but still had that fragile element about it because of the fuselage and the depron tail, and the weak control rods and horns, and that configuration just doesn't like rolling as much as a delta.

Reducing the wingspan to 30", and the weight to (?) both resulted in the necessity of a thinner airfoil in my mind to achieve the flying characteristics that I want. The official science would state otherwise but I don't know really, how much science has been done on the exact thing I'm doing, I don't think any. The worlds of aviation and model aviation aren't the same thing and stuff works in a weird alice in wonderland sorta way when it comes to Physics when you go small and light. I think at these sizes its best to go even thinner than is normally prescribed, its just the way the air works in my experience, while the trouble often comes from the difficulty in building things this thin in a precise way while keeping them lightweight and rigid.. Thinning the airfoil also reduced the mass of the EPP cores. Reducing the wingspan, and thinning the airfoil (from 8-9% to 5-6%), thereby reducing the overall weight of the plane and naturally increasing the rigidity allowed the implementation of lighter weight carbon fiber reinforcement which also reduced the weight proportionally. Then I decided to go with a thinner laminate instead of the 3mil thickness I was using, once again, a weight decrease. The smaller wingspan, lower weight of the airframe allowed the use of smaller servos (3.7g instead of 9g) to, again, reduce the weight. We're now working with something that is about as much of nothing as possible, while still having an actual airfoil. The foam is thin enough to see through at the rear 50% of the chord..

I added four 5mm LED's using random gauges of wire in the tool box.. for the UFO enthusiasts out there, and now we're ready to install servos, cut and hinge the elevons & create some tip fins & mounts. I would like to do some kind of RDS system for the elevons or some kind of torque rod pull/pull system in order to keep the wing totally clean, but I think I will go the regular route this time because I don't know how to do that stuff yet and I want to fly. I also need to see how much length I can afford to lose on the servo arm and still get the roll rate I want. The length of the servo arm will determine what ability I have to bury the elevon connections. This is a finicky thing to figure out with tiny servos and tiny planes because slop becomes a big deal pretty easily in several different ways, and then when you go and change the geometry of things, the size of the elevon horns, you wind up with different mechanical leverage values and when enough throw is managed then other issues come into play that not even solidworks will forsee, like the structural properties of the foam itself surrounding the hinge and control horn areas, and so on and so forth. I had determined a long time ago that the best route is a long servo arm AND a long horn on the surface side, in order to battle aerodynamic forces on barn door surfaces that rotate 180 degrees. There are however aesthetic and aerodynamic issues when those techniques are used, compromises I've been willing to make because of the nature of the craft I was producing and its ability to actually take advantage of excess drag, while this flying wing DLG is the opposite.


I need to work on my cutting system to get more consistent cuts when cutting out these ultrathin airfoils *it's thickest point is only 1/2 and tapers to nothing"* because as you can see the trailing edge lost a little material. It's so thin back there, that it actually vaporized. Not a big deal other than aesthetics because the foam is so thin anyway that the laminate laminated to itself at the trailing edge takes care of the lost surface area without complaint. I'll probably put a sticker over it, and you will all be none the wiser. While I did manage to cut out a set of very clean cores alongside these, it required spectacular robot-like athleticism to accomplish on my part. Cutting EPP is difficult, cutting EPP to tolerances its never seen before by hand is really, really really difficult! I'll be switching to top & bottom templates instead of the full airfoil center templates for the next iteration, or better yet I'll get the CNC cutter running that I've been printing parts for after I win the lotto..

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I am looking for some kind of opaque diffuser I can use over those LED's to spread the light just a little better. It's got to weigh nothing and look good, whatever it is.
 

Piotrsko

Master member
I suggest thin chinese packing tape of the appropriate color. The glue is colored and the tape is so thin and cheap it won't add much weight. Two or three layers of clear will also work
 
Well the little thin wing 30" with LED's is finished and I got to fly it tonight. The yellow LED's aren't showing up well, I had to join the yellow ones to get them to turn on at all. There are two 5mm yellow LED's and two 5mm blue LED's, the yellows are joined (series? I don't know I read explanations on this LED stuff and dont think I'm grasping it) and the blues are not. If I don't join the yellows, they don't turn on. Anyway all 4 are wired to a regular JST (servo) plug and plugged directly into the receiver and running off a 1s 350mah Lipo. I think its a problem I have to live with, I don't want to add any weight because it is flying so awesome now, any extra components could tip the scales. The blues are bright and I have no zero visual issues at night flying.

The performance is absolutely spectacular. I didn't think it would be anywhere near what it is and I've never seen anything like it. I'm going to try to get some video during the day the next time the wind cooperates because filming at night just doesn't work. Dead air times at night are really good, 45 seconds with relatively tight circles. Inverted is just as good as right side up, and she rolls like a top. Just incredibly fun and free of any kind of problems whether its handling or durability, I don't think I could break it if I tried, and I'll definitely try! I'm out of shape and my arm is sore or I'd be flying now -- did I mention how sweet it is to fly DLG after the sun's gone down?

Admittedly I'm tooting my own horn here - but I really am this excited and impressed by the plane, its everything I've wanted from a wing and more, really didn't expect just how well it was going to perform.
 
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Piotrsko

Master member
Different colors have different excitation voltage requirements or you may have some reverse biased.
 
Different colors have different excitation voltage requirements or you may have some reverse biased.
hmm, yes
--

so, utilizing the following information does it make sense that if I have two blue ones & a yellow, the yellow won't turn on, but if I have two blue ones and (two yellows tied together), the lights do turn on? I thought that the single yellow wasn't turning on because the voltage was too high and it was burning out, because when I would connect it to the positive and negative, it would flicker fast and go out. The same would happen for a red LED, but, interestingly enough, not a green LED.

I'm assuming yellow+yellow = forward voltage of 4.2-4.4v -- which would explain why they turn on, but they're dim? What kind of extremely small inline thingamabob could I use to make it so a single yellow can handle 3.6-4.2v range, and is it something readily available via junk like old appliances/ phones / computers etc?


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Well as murphy's law goes, the lighter you build a plane, the more the wind blows and it looks like we're in for it all week.

Here's an example of the type of plane I'm making from 4 years ago

 
Well my friend Andrew wanted one so I put one together tonight in record time - 2 hours, and 17 minutes from block to receiver ready!
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Piotrsko

Master member
hmm, yes
--

so, utilizing the following information does it make sense that if I have two blue ones & a yellow, the yellow won't turn on, but if I have two blue ones and (two yellows tied together), the lights do turn on? I thought that the single yellow wasn't turning on because the voltage was too high and it was burning out, because when I would connect it to the positive and negative, it would flicker fast and go out. The same would happen for a red LED, but, interestingly enough, not a green LED.

I'm assuming yellow+yellow = forward voltage of 4.2-4.4v -- which would explain why they turn on, but they're dim? What kind of extremely small inline thingamabob could I use to make it so a single yellow can handle 3.6-4.2v range, and is it something readily available via junk like old appliances/ phones / computers etc?


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You need current values and then some sort of resistor added. If possible measure the forward resistance of the LED and use perhaps 10% less.
 
I wonder if I could use inconel wire or a thicker piano wire as a resistor. I gotta get a voltmeter now too many tools.

30" McGoogle Wing passed the "kids in the park" test, they grabbed it by the elevons, swung it around backwards and threw it into the ground and everything is still pristine so that's a sort of miracle of engineering or something. After the delinquents were met with limited success I decided I'd show them how to throw it and they passed that test too!

I did wind up gooping the winglet mounts on. It's just the best working solution. Goop really is 'Amazing' even though its horrifically toxic. I'll warn you though, aside from the toxicity, (sometimes I forget not everybody knows because I've been doing this my whole life) that if you use Goop on anything other than EPP then you're gonna want to check first to see exactly what the material is and whether or not it will react and melt with toluene or xylene.
 
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Piotrsko

Master member
Inconel and or thinner wire. Or a red, infrared In series on the negative end of the string maybe even two paralleled reds.

You do realize you're making me remember stuff from the last century

Goop? You're a follower of jennifer anniston or is that a generic name for something possibly very interesting? I can't think of anything commercially available that would be super toxic and strong.

Glad you passed the miscreant test. Next up, the dog fetch after stomping all over then chewing.
 
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