Mighty "Mini" PBY-5A Catalina - WWII Flying Boat

localfiend

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So, as inspiration I share this thread for you... it's just a little light reading ;) Retractable floats starts around post 353. For those to lazy to read through it the video is below.

Hah, harbor freight screwdriver. That's awesome. Maybe I'll go that far and do something similar when I scale this thing up to 80 or 90 inches.

I did just order a couple of metal gear servos and a servo speed reducer last night. I have a retract mechanism in mind, but it will be much simpler. Wire, bbq skewers, and popsicle sticks should be all I need. I wonder if I could make some fake supports from wire that will fold up like the real ones do in the video.
 

localfiend

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Copied and pasted this from the Maiden Video Thread:

Nice water baby maiden. I noticed that the first time you tried to take off you punched the throttle and it spun around. Somewhere in the FT video library I remember watching one on flying off the water. That is a whole other animal and requires a fine touch for taking off. I remember them saying you have to ease into it to get it up on the step otherwise the drag of the water does horrible things. Same thing with landings you have to land under power then once its on the step you can throttle down and let it settle in.

If you know this already sorry for butting in. If not look at this video it says a lot on how to fly off and on water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4kpv1ZBrCc



I've seen the video, and was aware I was breaking all the rules. Good of you to point it out though. My attempts at flying off the water are not a good example of how to do it. :cool: Probably would have been best to simply try on another day after fixing the floats, but I wanted to fly.

Controlled tracking was so bad that I was using full aileron deflection and punching it to get the wingtip float that was on the water off so that I could get up on step and off the water all at once. There was too much wind to do a slow run up. I was afraid that if I went slow, the plane would turn away from the wind and give me problems that way.

I'll put longer wingtip floats on it next outing so that both wingtip floats are just barely in contact with the water. That should hopefully fix the tracking issuee, which will allow me to a proper gradual acceleration, get up on step, then take off.


I'm not sure wing tip floats touching the water full time would be good on such a light frame. I would think it would cause too much drag to let it get up on the step properly. I think I remember reading or hearing in one of the bajillion videos I have watched that the issue you have was resolved by adding ballast in the bottom of the hull.

I believe the only function of the floats is to stop the wing tips from dunking when there is not enough air flow for the ailerons to have effect on the air frame or for static floating. Those are not meant to be in the water on take off and landing. I would think if those were lowered that you would have a bigger chance to rip off a wing on a water landing due to massive resistance if those hit the water at speed.

If you watch this video this planes floats are all ready fully retracted by the time it lifts off. The most I saw hitting the water once it was moving was the trailing edge of the float whish is really thin and may actually function for minor tracking. the floats look like they are at least 5 to 7 degrees nose up in relation to the water when just begging to rise up on the step at take off. Maybe look at adding a tiny bit of angle on the floats before adding any length to the struts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWSDcAZD7JQ

Yeah, I certainly don't really want both wing tip floats supporting weight at the same time, but they do need to be much closer to the water. Mine were so far away, that when the plane was resting on one, the whole plane tipped so much that it naturally turned, and rudder alone was not enough for it to overcome those forces and change direction.

Here's a Dynam PBY that's essentially the same size (though it is double the weight)


And another:

 

Tench745

Master member
Yeah, you either need a heavier plane, or longer float struts. Something you may notice about boats in these videos, as a displacement hull approaches its maximum hull speed, it slowly squats deeper into the water, essentially getting caught in the hollow behind its bow wake. Add enough power and the hull can climb the back of that wave and begin to skim over the water. This is known as "planing", or being "on plane", or in the case of a stepped-hull flying boat, "on step". With a flying boat the lift from the wing helps pull everything up onto the top of that wave.
I know a lot of this is review for some people.
Anyway. Point is, if both your wingtip floats were just touching the water at rest, when you apply power and the hull starts to squat in the trough or of that wave, the tip floats would dig in a lot. The heavier the hull is, the more it will squat as you apply power, trying to get it to ride up the back side of that bow wave.
I say this more for other people reading this thread and being inspired to build their own planes than for Localfiend. You've got all this well in hand from what I've seen.
 

localfiend

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Yeah, you either need a heavier plane, or longer float struts. Something you may notice about boats in these videos, as a displacement hull approaches its maximum hull speed, it slowly squats deeper into the water, essentially getting caught in the hollow behind its bow wake. Add enough power and the hull can climb the back of that wave and begin to skim over the water. This is known as "planing", or being "on plane", or in the case of a stepped-hull flying boat, "on step". With a flying boat the lift from the wing helps pull everything up onto the top of that wave.
I know a lot of this is review for some people.
Anyway. Point is, if both your wingtip floats were just touching the water at rest, when you apply power and the hull starts to squat in the trough or of that wave, the tip floats would dig in a lot. The heavier the hull is, the more it will squat as you apply power, trying to get it to ride up the back side of that bow wave.
I say this more for other people reading this thread and being inspired to build their own planes than for Localfiend. You've got all this well in hand from what I've seen.

Yeah, I knew the planes tend to squat a bit. Good thing to keep in mind for water planes in general. I wonder if this would actually be an issue for stuff as light as this. With these modern brushless motors, just about all RC models are massively overpowered. I think the period of time between squatting and getting up on step is a fraction of a second.

Maybe if you're really careful with the throttle and try to fly scale the issue would come up. It will be interesting to see how the Sea Duck behaves on water. It's similar in size to this PBY, but is also heavier, and much more powerful.

I guess we'll find out when I lower the struts. I need to get them down to at least a more normal level. The amount of dihedral on the wingtips of the trainer style wing just exacerbates the problem. If I'm feeling ambitious maybe I'll make some struts that are a bit too low on purpose, just to see what happens.


Also, a note on waterproofing. After dunking the plane yesterday, everything worked. However, when I tried to stop for a quick flight at the local RC field today my ESC's were behaving erratically. Sometimes they wouldn't even beep, and then others they would beep as normal, work for a second and stop. Gave up and took it home.

Spent a couple minutes shooting compressed air through the ESC's, and had a mix of water and Corrosion X come out. Now that they're clean and dry, everything is behaving as it should. Moral of the story, if you dunk your plane, shoot down all the electronics with compressed air to make sure they're dry. If you kept heat shrink on your ESC's, and didn't epoxy seal them, there's a good chance residual water will eventually work it's way past the Corrosion X.
 

localfiend

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Here's the precursor video to the one above. It was pretty much dead calm, so I couldn't resist flying even though I still had the short struts. Got in one good takeoff and landing, but the rest of the time I went around in circles.



After today's experiment, I'm thinking that if the longer struts don't fix the problem, I'll move away from scale for fixed floats and dihedral wing setup.

I'm thinking larger than scale wingtip floats, and a much more extreme up angle. I'd like to have something that's very easy to fly off of water, and if I need to move away from scale to do that, it's all good. I'll still have the scale wing with retracts for those who want it to look as much like a PBY as possible.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
I still think adding some weight in the center of the hull could cure a lot of the bad water tendencies. It will also bring the existing floats down to the water maybe even to where you plan them to be on your change. The ballast should help it to re-center after a turn and not get stuck with one float in the water constantly.
 

localfiend

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I still think adding some weight in the center of the hull could cure a lot of the bad water tendencies. It will also bring the existing floats down to the water maybe even to where you plan them to be on your change. The ballast should help it to re-center after a turn and not get stuck with one float in the water constantly.

I agree, adding weight would most certainly cure a good portion of the issue, it's just that I want to do that as a last resort.

For the fun fly/ trainer version, I'm thinking over-sized over-angled floats. For the scale version, I might have to do like you're suggesting and simply make the plane heavier. Which won't be an issue. The light weight version essentially flies itself, a heavier version would probably only take a little more finesse to fly. Maybe spec the scale version for bigger motors (2212 1450kv 50 grams), and make it so you can get more batteries under the CG. The plane would easily carry two 2200 3s batteries. And even if you didn't hook both up, it would be convenient ballast.

Another option I'm considering is adding a clear fin to the bottom of the hull. Maybe at the back of the lower v section. It would be invisible for the most part, and might force the plane to track straight better.
 

localfiend

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what power pack would this run off of? I want to get an f pack, and I might get two for this. do u think that will be enough???

thanks.

Two F pack motors is what I'm using in all the flight videos posted. Vertical isn't unlimited or anything, but it has plenty of power for fun flying and last minute obstacle avoidance. :cool:

I think it would even work off an A pack, but the F pack would certainly be more fun.
 

Tench745

Master member
With something this light and heavily powered, the squatting probably doesn't affect it much. The more weight you have though, the more noticeable it will be. I think increasing your up-angle on the floats and maybe over-sizing your ailerons will get you what you need. A clear fixed skeg on the back would make water handling suffer. And it looks like once a float digs in it is held down by the water flowing over top of it, so going straighter/faster would just suck that float down further. A clear, steerable water rudder, might be better if you did add an appendage there. I'm slowly putting together a SeaRey, sort of the Catalina's little cousin. But I have no experience flying or even taxiing it yet, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
I like the train of thought you had with the extra / double battery. Maybe putting the battery hatch in the hulls lower areas keeping lateral cog low would be enough to counter the rolling over and letting the outer floats dig in. A lower heavier lateral cog would do wonders for the over correcting tendency on the water and may even act better to self right the plane. That would also save having to add weight.
 

localfiend

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With something this light and heavily powered, the squatting probably doesn't affect it much. The more weight you have though, the more noticeable it will be. I think increasing your up-angle on the floats and maybe over-sizing your ailerons will get you what you need. A clear fixed skeg on the back would make water handling suffer. And it looks like once a float digs in it is held down by the water flowing over top of it, so going straighter/faster would just suck that float down further. A clear, steerable water rudder, might be better if you did add an appendage there. I'm slowly putting together a SeaRey, sort of the Catalina's little cousin. But I have no experience flying or even taxiing it yet, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Hmm. So you think a fin would be bad, because it makes the plane to hard to turn? I suppose that makes sense. Maybe making the lower hull sharper than scale on the bottom was a bad idea. I wanted to make sure it didn't wobble all over the place, but maybe it's too stable and just wants to go straight.


I like the train of thought you had with the extra / double battery. Maybe putting the battery hatch in the hulls lower areas keeping lateral cog low would be enough to counter the rolling over and letting the outer floats dig in. A lower heavier lateral cog would do wonders for the over correcting tendency on the water and may even act better to self right the plane. That would also save having to add weight.

That reminds me, I forgot to show pictures of the battery hatch. It's possible to have it fit right under the main canopy, but the fit was tight. I build a battery hatch down into the lower hull so there would be more room.

Ugly:



On the beta plans I released, this battery hatch is longer and deeper, and can be installed onto the top deck piece before the rest of the plane is build. Should be a lot prettier when done that way. If I end up needing more weight, this can be extended back, maybe at an angle so that loading a second battery in will be easy.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
How hard would it be to stair step them? Sort of like toppled dominos to keep the weight more in one area and not mess with normal COG.
That might give enough to put lateral cog in a good place as well as pull the waterline lower thus getting the outer floats down closer to the water without and physical changes. Then all you would need is to change the angle they are on so the major portion is not creating drag when contact with the water happens.
 

Tench745

Master member
Hmm. So you think a fin would be bad, because it makes the plane to hard to turn? I suppose that makes sense. Maybe making the lower hull sharper than scale on the bottom was a bad idea. I wanted to make sure it didn't wobble all over the place, but maybe it's too stable and just wants to go straight.

There are so many forces at work in this case, it's hard to wrap my brain around which ones are beneficial and which are causing the problem. I think adding a fixed fin would make it that much harder to turn when you wanted to, and if the wind kicks up or shifts the plane will be less likely to weather-vane into that wind. Meaning, it's more likely for the plane to remain sideways to the wind a lift a wing tip, burying a float.
One of the problems you might be having is that buoyancy, like lift, doesn't scale. If you halve the dimensions of something, you cut the volume by an eighth but the area by only a quarter. This means that for your scale model (what's this plane, about 1:22 scale?) to float the same as the full scale your total weight needs to be 1/10648th of the full scale, or about 3.32 pounds (53oz.). (This is assuming I did my math correctly. 22x22x22 should be 10,648. Max takeoff weight:35,420lbs.) And, your wing area is only 1/484th less than full scale. (22x22=484)
Where was I going with this...
Right. Buoyancy doesn't scale equally with lift and weight. Because your plane is so light, I'm guessing less than 32oz, your wingtip floats are nowhere near the water. If that is the only thing affecting water handling, longer struts for your floats would make up for that.
You mention sharpening the lower hull, does that mean you deepened the V of the hull for better tracking? If so this could be adding to your difficulties. By deepening that V you put more buoyancy deeper, lifting the whole hull higher. This means less of the edges (chines) of the hull are in the water to stabilize it. Essentially, it's like turning a roller-skate into a roller-blade. If you have or add enough weight to pull those edges back down into the water the deeper V should give you straighter tracking without affecting the stability, but if you're too light it's like a sea-saw with the keel as the pivot-point.

Lots of words, mostly to say, you could either lengthen the struts, or add weight, or flatten the V in the hull. Any one of those by itself should improve things. I wouldn't do more than one at once. Try one (whichever is easiest), analyze, try another if you don't like the results.

*Edit* I see now your AUW on the plans is 26.8oz If that were full scale (multiply by 22^3) it'd be about 3,000 pounds lighter than the Catalina's empty weight and 14,000 pounds lighter than max weight. No wonder it looks like it's sitting so high in the water.
 
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localfiend

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Yeah, lot of different things that could be contributing. Thanks for the thoughts. Making the hull steeper may have been a bad idea. I was afraid that with it being so light, it would be really hard to go straight.

I still plan on changing float heights first. Haven't done anything as I was waiting for a new glue gun, which I now have. The PBY needs some repairs before I can try it out. Left it in the sun to dry off after the last outing and the wings melted off. :eek: Black paint is dangerous.
 

Geezah

Member
Still a beautiful airplane. Can't wait to see the next iteration. I have two 2212 1400kv motors with 30 Amp ESCs waiting for a project. New radio and extra receivers with big 3s batteries.... I think I will do something a little more tame than this model for starters.
I want to build a PBY though and fly it off the lake near my house. Might make the Loons mad but it would still be a kick.
Great Job!