Noob needs help with an "anycopter" octo

[octodreamerFNG]

My situation may be a bit different than your average member here, up until about a week ago i'd never thought about building a multirotor anything. A friend of mine approached me with the idea of buying something he/we can fly and get nice video pictures with. the idea here being we can start a small business

about 5 minutes into some youtube searching and i landed on the DJI phantom, more specifically the + version with all the bells and whistles.

which would have been fine if i had an unlimited budget, no worry of being tied into proprietary systems, and no real platform that would be accepting of upgrades (like FPV).

so i did a little digging and stumbled upon this video:

the uploader had tagged the build video for this beast as "the $500 octocopter"

surely this can't be

the DJI 1000 was clearly out of range for me, it was exactly what i wanted, but the phantom + seemed a little more down to earth on price range.

now here's this lovely octo, with tons of power, looking a lot like that coveted DJI 1000 but at about 1/6th the cost of the phantom +.

so more digging, and lucky me, i found flite test.

that was a week ago, i've marathoned just about every video pertaining to multirotors, FPV, transmitters, etc... etc... that i could find, almost up to this most recent season.

so... long story longer here's what i'm looking for to fit my friends needs.

DIY heavy lifter octocopter

frame: anycopter hub and slightly longer than standard booms (my understanding is this would add to stability)

engines: (unknown)
props: (unkown)
controller: (unknown)

ect.. ect... ect...

what i need is a parts list, he needs to get started on a DIY build soon before he looses interest and ADD's his way to the next idea.

i want it to be able to lift heavy gear later
have long flight times
GoPro FPV
smooth flight
loiter
RTH
waypoints

...all the good stuff.

my worry is i've yet to find any video's discussing octo's on flite test (aside from very briefly during the "any copter hub" intro video.

i feel more comfortable with the anycopter frame for this first build, until i get a more in depth understanding of what that newer printed hub is for.

i don't even know what the minimum controller is i could get away with.

money isn't a huge issue, but if i had the build list for the flying frame it will give me a much better idea what i have to spend on the transmitter (i would love to have a high end one but no clue what is required to control the octo), the goggles (probably either the zeiss or the dominator HD's)...

in other words i'm overwhelmed with the options, it's just all too much to digest in such a short period of time... but i want to get started building ASAP.

If anyone has experience with building 8 rotor multicopters and has the time to respond to this, I would greatly appreciate it.

I'll apologies in advance, I know this is the exact type of questions a lot of hobby forums frown on as a first post...

I guess all I can offer is a sincere plea for help, free access to my knowledge in all things pyrotechnic, and my eternal gratitude (whatever that may be worth to you).

Thanks in advance to anyone who responds.

-Jason

P.S. if anyone is interested i've got a cool way to simulate this:

on an RC scale and even have the remote firing system (1 mile range) able to pull it off

:applause:

...oh also i can get you smoke sticks by the case (aka cheap) if you are in ohio/michigan/indiana area

so i've got that going for me, which is nice...

/EDIT

i guess i should futher clarify the situation.

based on the videoi posted above (the"$500 octo") i've put together a build list, but it's more of a "tossing darts blindfolded" as i'm not sure how old/outdated this info is.

8x turnigy d2836 11
8x UBEC 30A ESC
5x "4 pack" of offset pairs of rotors (2xCW 2xCCW) (i ordered spares)
1x HKPilot Mega V2.5

on an anycopter hub kit, rotorbones motor mounts, bolts, custom ordered longer booms(?)

but i still need to know what to do about the following

batteries
transmitter/receiver
FPV (using go pro)
brushless gimbal
ground station antennas

lots i still don't know.

 

[x0054]

To be clear, are you looking to build an octo because you would like to take nice videos as a business, or do you want to build and octo, and you will later on use it to take nice videos? If you just want to build an octo because it's cool, then by all means. But if you want a nice video rig, then a quadcopter is really a perfect start, and once you get some experience with it, you can upgrade to an octo.

People build octo frames to carry professional grade cameras, like an expensive DSLR or a RED camera on a full on 3d gimbal. Considering that a camera like that is often worth more than the rig that's flying it, you really do not want to take your maiden flight, or even your 100th flight with such expensive equipment on board. On the other hand, a GoPro Black will shoot 1080p, and with a gimbal you can fly it on a normal quad just fine.

So, I guess I would just say, think about what you are building for. Also, it's hard to build a multirotor to carry arbitrary amount of load. For instance, if you want to carry 2 kilos of camera gear, you need to build for that AND fly with that. An octo that's designed to lift 2 kilos, but is flying empty will be very twitchy.

As for the parts list, with your requirements for waypoints and RTL, you really only have 2 choices, DJI or Ardupilot for your flight controller (as far as I know). If you don't need waypoints, than Naze32 is also a good option. For the radio, there is absolutely no reason to get an expensive system. 9X with FrSky module works perfect for me and many others, and it's about a $100 option. For $200 you can have FrSky Taranis, which people seam to like, but I haven't tried it.

As for the motors and props, you really need to build to a weight. So first decide what Gimbal and camera equipment you would like to use, and how much battery you would like to carry, and then you can choose motors and props.

But my honest recommendation, build a big quad first. Octo isn't really harder to build, or fly, but it's more expensive, and a huge overkill if you are going to just swing a GoPro around. Invest the money you are going to save into a nice gimbal system and perhaps a c-mount upgrade for the gopro.

 

[x0054]

To be clear, are you looking to build an octo because you would like to take nice videos as a business, or do you want to build and octo, and you will later on use it to take nice videos? If you just want to build an octo because it's cool, then by all means. But if you want a nice video rig, then a quadcopter is really a perfect start, and once you get some experience with it, you can upgrade to an octo.

People build octo frames to carry professional grade cameras, like an expensive DSLR or a RED camera on a full on 3d gimbal. Considering that a camera like that is often worth more than the rig that's flying it, you really do not want to take your maiden flight, or even your 100th flight with such expensive equipment on board. On the other hand, a GoPro Black will shoot 1080p, and with a gimbal you can fly it on a normal quad just fine.

So, I guess I would just say, think about what you are building for. Also, it's hard to build a multirotor to carry arbitrary amount of load. For instance, if you want to carry 2 kilos of camera gear, you need to build for that AND fly with that. An octo that's designed to lift 2 kilos, but is flying empty will be very twitchy.

As for the parts list, with your requirements for waypoints and RTL, you really only have 2 choices, DJI or Ardupilot for your flight controller (as far as I know). If you don't need waypoints, than Naze32 is also a good option. For the radio, there is absolutely no reason to get an expensive system. 9X with FrSky module works perfect for me and many others, and it's about a $100 option. For $200 you can have FrSky Taranis, which people seam to like, but I haven't tried it. I sm

As for the motors and props, you really need to build to a weight. So first decide what Gimbal and camera equipment you would like to use, and how much battery you would like to carry, and then you can choose motors and props.

But my honest recommendation, build a big quad first. Octo isn't really harder to build, or fly, but it's more expensive, and a huge overkill if you are going to just swing a GoPro around. Invest the money you are going to save into a nice gimbal system and perhaps a c-mount upgrade for the gopro.

 

[x0054]

HKPilot Mega V2.5 is basically 3DR APM 2.5 rebranded. You may be interested in getting the HKPilot32, which is the 3DR Pixhawk "clone." It's same software, but 32bit processor. This is the direction Ardupilot is heading. In general, research about the Ardupilot. DIYDrones.com is a support site for them. It's a good flight controller, I am running it on my Tricopter. But also take a look at DJI flight controllers. For GPS hold and stability, DJI is hard to beat at the moment. If you are going to take a lot of slow panning videos, it might be the way to go.

With that controller you will also need UBlox GPS unit with compass and a 3DR Radio for your ground station. If you don't need waypoints and just interested in GPS for positioning and RTL, Naze32 might be a good options as well.

- Bogdan

 

[octodreamerFNG]

To be clear, are you looking to build an octo because you would like to take nice videos as a business, or do you want to build and octo, and you will later on use it to take nice videos? If you just want to build an octo because it's cool, then by all means. But if you want a nice video rig, then a quadcopter is really a perfect start, and once you get some experience with it, you can upgrade to an octo.

People build octo frames to carry professional grade cameras, like an expensive DSLR or a RED camera on a full on 3d gimbal. Considering that a camera like that is often worth more than the rig that's flying it, you really do not want to take your maiden flight, or even your 100th flight with such expensive equipment on board. On the other hand, a GoPro Black will shoot 1080p, and with a gimbal you can fly it on a normal quad just fine.

So, I guess I would just say, think about what you are building for. Also, it's hard to build a multirotor to carry arbitrary amount of load. For instance, if you want to carry 2 kilos of camera gear, you need to build for that AND fly with that. An octo that's designed to lift 2 kilos, but is flying empty will be very twitchy.

As for the parts list, with your requirements for waypoints and RTL, you really only have 2 choices, DJI or Ardupilot for your flight controller (as far as I know). If you don't need waypoints, than Naze32 is also a good option. For the radio, there is absolutely no reason to get an expensive system. 9X with FrSky module works perfect for me and many others, and it's about a $100 option. For $200 you can have FrSky Taranis, which people seam to like, but I haven't tried it.

As for the motors and props, you really need to build to a weight. So first decide what Gimbal and camera equipment you would like to use, and how much battery you would like to carry, and then you can choose motors and props.

But my honest recommendation, build a big quad first. Octo isn't really harder to build, or fly, but it's more expensive, and a huge overkill if you are going to just swing a GoPro around. Invest the money you are going to save into a nice gimbal system and perhaps a c-mount upgrade for the gopro.

first off, thanks you very much for your response, i'm just so overwhelmed with this information, it's all a week old to me.

the basic idea here is for us to start our own company flying these things around getting video and camera shots for customers, some of which we already have lined up... like built in start up capital once the drone is flying.

my thinking, which may be off base here, is we want long flight times and rock steady shots if we are going to be doing any still photography, but for video as well. the more footage and images i have to cut the better the end result will be. for these reasons, i just assumed a larger platform would give us the most room to grow, and be able to carry the most amount of payload (batteries) for longer flight times.

also i figure a heavy lifting wide stance octo will be a more stable platform to work on, more "swoopy" in the sky than jerky like those little hummingbird micros.

so that octo in the video above, with a go pro and nice FPV electronics seems like it can be mounted to anything, so why not spend the money up front and get used to flying it, this way if/when we get into more expensive gear (like my camera that won't be mounted to anything anytime soon) i'll be flying the exact platform i've been "practicing" on with my go pro.

frankly, right off the bench, we'll just be FPV flying around local soccer fields when nobody is using them to get used to it.
that said... i clearly don't know what i'm talking about. i've never flown... anything. so your input here is awesome. if you think flying a gopro and a full load of batteries (again for long flight) would make it unpleasant to fly... then by all means... H quad is my next best choice.

but aside from double the motors, ESC's, booms, and landing gear... how much could the cost difference be for the bennifit of having room to grow?

like how difficult to fly is an underweighted octo... so much that i can't fix that on the controls by dialing it in with the expos?

i want something onboard that will help me fly it (keep it stable, loiter mode, return to home)... my understanding is all the good boards are able to do that.

i hope nothing i said came off as argumentative, i just wanted you to understand my thinking process so you can correct me where i'm wrong.

HKPilot Mega V2.5 is basically 3DR APM 2.5 rebranded. You may be interested in getting the HKPilot32, which is the 3DR Pixhawk "clone." It's same software, but 32bit processor. This is the direction Ardupilot is heading. In general, research about the Ardupilot. DIYDrones.com is a support site for them. It's a good flight controller, I am running it on my Tricopter. But also take a look at DJI flight controllers. For GPS hold and stability, DJI is hard to beat at the moment. If you are going to take a lot of slow panning videos, it might be the way to go.

With that controller you will also need UBlox GPS unit with compass and a 3DR Radio for your ground station. If you don't need waypoints and just interested in GPS for positioning and RTL, Naze32 might be a good options as well.

- Bogdan

so if you wanted all these:

autonomous flight/waypoints
loiter
return to home
active stabilization (noob mode)
GPS
(anything i'm forgetting?)

in a flight controller, and you were able to do basic computer stuff (flashing boards/ESC's) what would be ideal but not spending for the sake of spending.

i'm not scared of buying a "generic" board if it's equal performance, my concerns are buying junk or paying more than i need to for something that can give me what i need.

is the DJI worth the extra, or can the open source "hacker" boards able to do the same thing for less?

 

[x0054]

f
so if you wanted all these:

autonomous flight/waypoints
loiter
return to home
active stabilization (noob mode)
GPS
(anything i'm forgetting?)

in a flight controller, and you were able to do basic computer stuff (flashing boards/ESC's) what would be ideal but not spending for the sake of spending.

i'm not scared of buying a "generic" board if it's equal performance, my concerns are buying junk or paying more than i need to for something that can give me what i need.

is the DJI worth the extra, or can the open source "hacker" boards able to do the same thing for less?

You don't get something for nothing, as you know If you really think you need those features you listed, I think the only 2 FC that do all of that at the moment are Ardupilot and DJI. If you get 3DR branded APM or Pixhawk (both run Ardupilot), you may have good results for alt hold and GPS hold. I got an APM "clone" and my Alt hold is all over the place. GPS hold suffers as a result as well. I think the problem is with the barometer sensor being a little noisy. When I say "clone," it's not strictly accurate, 3DR hardware is technically open source, so other manufacturers have the right to copy and improve it. But the truth is, most just copy it, and many use reject parts and the quality suffers. You may get the perfect clone, you may get one that's a little wacky, like mine. It's usually a tossup. Ardupilot is open source software, and it runs on open source hardware. But for a proper setup you are looking at $300 from 3DR or at least $130 from some of the other sources.

DJI is closed source. It does exactly what it says on the tin, as they say. It works, and that's what people pay for. I think Ardupilot with good hardware could be just as good. So.... it's a tossup. I never got a chance to fly DJI other then a phantom for a few minutes, so, I can't say how much better it is or not.

OpenPilot Revo also claims to have all of those GPS features, but you have a better chance of getting your hands on a unicorn than a Revo. And, from what I heard, though the revo claims to be able to support all of those GPS features in the future, it does not at the moment. The software isn't there yet.

Naze32, which is a 32 bit port of MultiWii variant, is also very popular. Jhitesma is doing a writeup on installing Naze32 with GPS right now here. However, none of the firmwares for Naze32 do waypoints at the moment, as far as I know. They do support RTL and loiter, though I think those modes are still very beta. You can still get GPS position over telemetry, which in my opinion is the most important part for shooting video.

Maybe some one else can chime in here with some of the other options, I do not know of any others that will do waypoints.

I am kind of in the same situation. I really like shooting video, and I am researching right now building a large tricopter with brushless gimbal just for that purpose. If it works out good, I am also going to upgrade the gopro I have with a c-mount so I can use proper lenses. They shot parts of some of the blockbuster Hollywood movies with a GoPro with c-mount, if it's good enough for Hollywood, it's good enough for me. I like the way tricopter swings around, so I am building it. But an h-quad is a good option.

An octo is a really cool option as well, they are very stable and have good redundancy. But, they are expensive to build, and expensive to crash. In the long run you'll save money buy building a 400mm-500mm quad, learning how to fly on it, and then building a large octocopter to carry your DSLR.

As for FPV, you really need to learn how to fly LOS before FPV. And flying FPV with GoPro is also a little more complicated because a GoPro has a 150-200ms delay in the image stream when you feed it out of the USB jack. This is why most people who fly FPV fly with a board camera + GoPro. You can still fly FPV with GoPro, but it's harder because of the delay.

Just my thoughts...

- Bogdan

 

[Craftydan]

Octo,

First off, welcome to the forum.

This may sound like a brush-off, but it isn't *IN ANY WAY* -- I really hope you learn, grow, and succeed in this venture!

**** If you want to succeed, go out right now and buy a RTF Blade NanoQX. ****

I know, it's $100 investment in a "toy" when you're *trying* to build a monster multirotor for a busness venture on an impossibly slim budget, but camera-less or not, you *need* to learn the dynamics of flight *first*. If you want to skimp on your training, you can find a RTF Hubsan x107 for a little as $50.

I know you're thinking "I can build it, put a smart controller on it, then I can learn on the big stable platform", but there are *many* little things you can do wrong in a build that will make a difference, and starting out flying something that a manufacturer has taken the time to tune gives you the experience of what it *should* feel like. You'll also pick up the skills necisary to manage your trottle, learn the directions intuitively (you never have time to think "how do I make it spin left?"), and be able to pilot the craft. THESE SKILLS ARE IMPORTANT TO YOUR SUCCESS.

Even if you get a super-smart control board that can fly itself (that's actually not that hard these days), you should not trust your $500 worth of multirotor (it will be more expensive before you're done) on an untested airframe to a controller that *might* not be set up correctly. For *any* DIY build it should slowly be tested, checking each sensor and it's setup on the ground and then in flight, turning on the functions one at a time until the robotic airframe is up and ready to take your video. To do this, you need to *at least* know how to fly. Turning everything on and flipping the "go" switch can end dramatically in a frame shattering crash . . . or worse -- an uncontrolled flyaway.

Seriously. For your success, learn how to fly.

While you're doing that, we can help you plan your big build, but first, let's talk two budget busters . . . Support gear and repairs.


Support gear:

- What kind of radio gear do you already have (ok, I'm assuming none, but I figgured I'd ask). count on this being around $80-150 more to the budget -- you don't need the latest hotness, or even feature rich, but I'd be leary of suggesting going too low. The orange T-SIX with an Orange RX modules will run ~$80, and will fly fine in signal sparse environments, but if the environment becomes too noisy at 2.4Ghz, the radio link might get "shot down". A Turnigy 9xR with a DSMX or FRSKY module (with matchign DSXM or FRSKY recievers) will run a bit more, but will give you a much more stable link. MANY around here will recommend a Tarranis, and it's an excelent radio at great price, but for your budget crunch might be more than you'd want to afford -- the choice is yours.

- Do you have a good battery charger? The accucel6 can be picked up for around $50 (with the power supply) and should charge most batteries up to 6 cells, but with the size of airframe you're looking at, it's 50W limit might be under a "slow" charge rate meaning 2-3 hrs to charge a pack. so, something like an accucell8, at 150W might be more appropriate . . . but for much more for charger + power supply.

- Batteries . . . I have friends who run arial videography professionally and their battery costs run several thousand a season. With luck and care they can make some of their packs cary over from one season to the next, but it's a re-occuring cost. They'll more than clear it, but it's not cheap. one more thing to consider, starting with lightweight gear and heavy batteries, is fine but as you want to upgrade cameras, you'll likely want to up the battery voltage to increase your useable payload. this is not just expensive, it can be limited by you gear -- your motors/ESCs migth not be able to handle the higher voltage. keep this in mind as you look at components

- Control boards -- Seriously. Naza. It will cost you more for the same gear, and it's a pain to set up, but it's the mac of the multirotor world -- it simply works (or it doesn't -- not much inbetween). I have a deep disdain for the company -- they sell platforms with a false sense of security to people who dont' know how to fly, let alone know how to fly safely -- but their controllers are good. **expect it to be complicated to set up**. The APM boards are nice flying robots and will do waypoints well but you sacrifice quality for cost. From what I've seen, It will take less setup to get it in the air, but far more tuning to get it to fly well. For your experience level and desired busness goals, I'd recommend the Naza (through gritted teeth).


Repairs:

- Field Strip -- for an business octo, 8 motors/ESCs/Props are not enough. Ever. When parts go out you *NEED* to repair it *NOW* in the field. you shoudl build and desing wiht this in mind, and you'll *WANT* a few crashes before a paying gig to know what kind of trouble you're about to get yourself into.

- Quality -- What I'm willing to put up with as a hobbyist you *CANNOT* tollerate as a pro. Will your client be understanding if you can't film their wedding with an arial shot of them leaving the church . . . becasue you had an ESC go out 10 min before the service? or a bearing go bad in a motor? or . . . If I were about to build something to support a reputation oriented business I would *not* select the same motors and ESCs I'd buy to fly through the woods for my own pleasure. Even good quality for the hobby market will not do when my name is on the line . . . becasue my name means the difference between future paychecks or a failed business venture. The risk is yours to take.

 

[Cyberdactyl]

As Craftydan says, at first, -take it slow -build cheap -build light -build easy-to-fix. And always assume something will be wrong or go wrong.

No matter how much confidence, and unless you have a lot of easy cash to blow, building complex and big will highly likely be a heartbreak at some point if you're totally new to the hobby.

We've seen the heartbreak here and at other forums numerous times. So much so, many people leave the hobby from the frustration and anger at themselves for trashing several hundred dollars from over exuberance.

 

[octodreamerFNG]

wow, you guys are awesome...

You don't get something for nothing, as you know If you really think you need those features you listed, I think the only 2 FC that do all of that at the moment are Ardupilot and DJI. If you get 3DR branded APM or Pixhawk (both run Ardupilot), you may have good results for alt hold and GPS hold. I got an APM "clone" and my Alt hold is all over the place. GPS hold suffers as a result as well. I think the problem is with the barometer sensor being a little noisy. When I say "clone," it's not strictly accurate, 3DR hardware is technically open source, so other manufacturers have the right to copy and improve it. But the truth is, most just copy it, and many use reject parts and the quality suffers. You may get the perfect clone, you may get one that's a little wacky, like mine. It's usually a tossup. Ardupilot is open source software, and it runs on open source hardware. But for a proper setup you are looking at $300 from 3DR or at least $130 from some of the other sources.

DJI is closed source. It does exactly what it says on the tin, as they say. It works, and that's what people pay for. I think Ardupilot with good hardware could be just as good. So.... it's a tossup. I never got a chance to fly DJI other then a phantom for a few minutes, so, I can't say how much better it is or not.

OpenPilot Revo also claims to have all of those GPS features, but you have a better chance of getting your hands on a unicorn than a Revo. And, from what I heard, though the revo claims to be able to support all of those GPS features in the future, it does not at the moment. The software isn't there yet.

Naze32, which is a 32 bit port of MultiWii variant, is also very popular. Jhitesma is doing a writeup on installing Naze32 with GPS right now here. However, none of the firmwares for Naze32 do waypoints at the moment, as far as I know. They do support RTL and loiter, though I think those modes are still very beta. You can still get GPS position over telemetry, which in my opinion is the most important part for shooting video.

Maybe some one else can chime in here with some of the other options, I do not know of any others that will do waypoints.

just to be up front here... i've got nothing right now, not even a battery charger.

and i've got around $2000 to spend.

so because i need to buy everything i'd like to get the best gear i can for my money, but i don't know if i have the budget to go crazy...

it seems like the DJI board is the way to go, i'm just afraid to go over budget... because frankly it's not my money i'm spending. i loved the video josh bixler did on the ArduPilot, but that video is almost 2 years old... so i'd imagine something better may have came down the tech pipe since then.

i guess i can put that decision on the backburner for now and iron out everything else first... whatever room i have left in the budget i guess that will make the decision for me.

I am kind of in the same situation. I really like shooting video, and I am researching right now building a large tricopter with brushless gimbal just for that purpose. If it works out good, I am also going to upgrade the gopro I have with a c-mount so I can use proper lenses. They shot parts of some of the blockbuster Hollywood movies with a GoPro with c-mount, if it's good enough for Hollywood, it's good enough for me. I like the way tricopter swings around, so I am building it. But an h-quad is a good option.

An octo is a really cool option as well, they are very stable and have good redundancy. But, they are expensive to build, and expensive to crash. In the long run you'll save money buy building a 400mm-500mm quad, learning how to fly on it, and then building a large octocopter to carry your DSLR.

i like the tri-copter, but the one thing i want to do for sure is have enough lifting power to carry enough batteries to get at least 30 minute flight times. one of the spots we want to use this for is a giant uninhabited island a few miles long and about a half a mile wide. we want to do a lot of exploring most of the year, and also use it for deer spotting during hunting season. so having long flight times and long range FPV is a must for us.

is it possible to get all of that out of a large H frame (i assume H frames are best due to having that long central core plate where you can place lots of batteries)?

it just seems like a big-ole octo is the way to go. we can load that thing down with a bunch of batteries and fly for a long time. if we get out of FPV range we can just click that RTH button and cross our fingers.

but seeing as how this is a business investment we won't be cruising through the forest or abandoned buildings with chains of death hanging from the ceiling.

if we ever want to get into that side of the hobby i would love to build a cool little fold up tri-copter... but for now i want to focus on safe long distance FPV soaring over the trees...

anyway... 2 of our potential customers are golf courses who want their courses mapped, they want those artsy flyby shots you see when you watch golf on TV... as long as this thing flys long enough to do 3 or 4 jobs, it'll pay for itself no problem, and we've already got these jobs lined up.

so i'm tempted to go as big as my $2000 budget will allow.

can i mount a go pro with a gimbal on a H quad?

if so, whats an average flight time for something like that? 10 minutes? 15 minutes?

As for FPV, you really need to learn how to fly LOS before FPV. And flying FPV with GoPro is also a little more complicated because a GoPro has a 150-200ms delay in the image stream when you feed it out of the USB jack. This is why most people who fly FPV fly with a board camera + GoPro. You can still fly FPV with GoPro, but it's harder because of the delay.

Just my thoughts...

- Bogdan

it seems that learning to fly LOS would be a lot harder than FPV and with an FPV setup, provided we don't go tree trimming, on a "cheater" setup, it would be a lot harder to crash than if we were learning LOS.

frankly i'm much more comfortable flying in video game mode than i would be flying that drone and getting all turned around.

perhaps i'm over thinking this, but it seems like as long as my gear is solid, it's going to be easier to fly that way.

Octo,

First off, welcome to the forum.

This may sound like a brush-off, but it isn't *IN ANY WAY* -- I really hope you learn, grow, and succeed in this venture!

**** If you want to succeed, go out right now and buy a RTF Blade NanoQX. ****

I know, it's $100 investment in a "toy" when you're *trying* to build a monster multirotor for a busness venture on an impossibly slim budget, but camera-less or not, you *need* to learn the dynamics of flight *first*. If you want to skimp on your training, you can find a RTF Hubsan x107 for a little as $50.

I know you're thinking "I can build it, put a smart controller on it, then I can learn on the big stable platform", but there are *many* little things you can do wrong in a build that will make a difference, and starting out flying something that a manufacturer has taken the time to tune gives you the experience of what it *should* feel like. You'll also pick up the skills necisary to manage your trottle, learn the directions intuitively (you never have time to think "how do I make it spin left?"), and be able to pilot the craft. THESE SKILLS ARE IMPORTANT TO YOUR SUCCESS.

Even if you get a super-smart control board that can fly itself (that's actually not that hard these days), you should not trust your $500 worth of multirotor (it will be more expensive before you're done) on an untested airframe to a controller that *might* not be set up correctly. For *any* DIY build it should slowly be tested, checking each sensor and it's setup on the ground and then in flight, turning on the functions one at a time until the robotic airframe is up and ready to take your video. To do this, you need to *at least* know how to fly. Turning everything on and flipping the "go" switch can end dramatically in a frame shattering crash . . . or worse -- an uncontrolled flyaway.

Seriously. For your success, learn how to fly.

i appreciate the forewarning, and i completely understand the value of learning to do it right before i spend a bunch on a bigger multirotor.

if this were me, on my budget... i'd probably follow your advice.

i just got off the phone with my friend asking me if i needed his credit card number to start ordering parts...

he wants to be FPV flying long distance asap, if i handed him a $100 mini he'd be pissed

i'm trying to do this as smart as possible, knowing we have no business LOS flying a raw multi...

this is why i'm so adamant on getting all the cheater gear to keep it safe and stable and RTH.

so we aren't just flushing cash.

While you're doing that, we can help you plan your big build, but first, let's talk two budget busters . . . Support gear and repairs.


Support gear:

- What kind of radio gear do you already have (ok, I'm assuming none, but I figgured I'd ask). count on this being around $80-150 more to the budget -- you don't need the latest hotness, or even feature rich, but I'd be leary of suggesting going too low. The orange T-SIX with an Orange RX modules will run ~$80, and will fly fine in signal sparse environments, but if the environment becomes too noisy at 2.4Ghz, the radio link might get "shot down". A Turnigy 9xR with a DSMX or FRSKY module (with matchign DSXM or FRSKY recievers) will run a bit more, but will give you a much more stable link. MANY around here will recommend a Tarranis, and it's an excelent radio at great price, but for your budget crunch might be more than you'd want to afford -- the choice is yours.

- Do you have a good battery charger? The accucel6 can be picked up for around $50 (with the power supply) and should charge most batteries up to 6 cells, but with the size of airframe you're looking at, it's 50W limit might be under a "slow" charge rate meaning 2-3 hrs to charge a pack. so, something like an accucell8, at 150W might be more appropriate . . . but for much more for charger + power supply.

- Batteries . . . I have friends who run arial videography professionally and their battery costs run several thousand a season. With luck and care they can make some of their packs cary over from one season to the next, but it's a re-occuring cost. They'll more than clear it, but it's not cheap. one more thing to consider, starting with lightweight gear and heavy batteries, is fine but as you want to upgrade cameras, you'll likely want to up the battery voltage to increase your useable payload. this is not just expensive, it can be limited by you gear -- your motors/ESCs migth not be able to handle the higher voltage. keep this in mind as you look at components

- Control boards -- Seriously. Naza. It will cost you more for the same gear, and it's a pain to set up, but it's the mac of the multirotor world -- it simply works (or it doesn't -- not much inbetween). I have a deep disdain for the company -- they sell platforms with a false sense of security to people who dont' know how to fly, let alone know how to fly safely -- but their controllers are good. **expect it to be complicated to set up**. The APM boards are nice flying robots and will do waypoints well but you sacrifice quality for cost. From what I've seen, It will take less setup to get it in the air, but far more tuning to get it to fly well. For your experience level and desired busness goals, I'd recommend the Naza (through gritted teeth).


Repairs:

- Field Strip -- for an business octo, 8 motors/ESCs/Props are not enough. Ever. When parts go out you *NEED* to repair it *NOW* in the field. you shoudl build and desing wiht this in mind, and you'll *WANT* a few crashes before a paying gig to know what kind of trouble you're about to get yourself into.

- Quality -- What I'm willing to put up with as a hobbyist you *CANNOT* tollerate as a pro. Will your client be understanding if you can't film their wedding with an arial shot of them leaving the church . . . becasue you had an ESC go out 10 min before the service? or a bearing go bad in a motor? or . . . If I were about to build something to support a reputation oriented business I would *not* select the same motors and ESCs I'd buy to fly through the woods for my own pleasure. Even good quality for the hobby market will not do when my name is on the line . . . becasue my name means the difference between future paychecks or a failed business venture. The risk is yours to take.

wow, so much good stuff there...

so i have literally nothing, well... i do have an old portable DVD player that i pull the screen out of (12v) that has AV in and out. so i guess i've got something... but i have nothing else.

radio: because i plan to fly this long distance, is there a trans/reciever combo that would work better than others at long range?

charger: i planned on spending around 100 bucks, so thats no big deal. sounds like that accucell8 is a good way to go, but if it's way out of my price range i will for sure look at the 6

batteries: still not sure what i should be looking into here, but i imagine a lot of depends on what the rest of the gear winds up being. either way, i'd like to have a few spares to swap in and out so we can go somewhere in the AM, and spend the whole day there if we need to charging from the car.

control board: as i mentioned above, i really enjoyed the video josh bixler did on the ardupilot mega, it all seemed to make perfect sense to me and seemed like something i could easily settle into. i'm fairly computer savy and not afraid of tech... so it seemed very do-able to me.

i love to tinker, and it looks like fun...

that said, if the DJI board flys better, and is safer for new guys (like me and my friend)... then it sounds like that is my choice.

as far as the field strip and quality goes i hear ya, and frankly until we are comfortable and have enough gear to do repairs... we aren't going to be doing anything "live". all the idea's i've got in my head for making money involve stationary targets, with no real timeline. the only one that has a clock on it right now is a cornmaze, and i haven't even contacted that guy yet.

everything else is "whenever we can get around to it" kinda situation.

once we start making money, and get our name out there, thats when we can build something better.

the more i think about this the more it's starting to make sense to go with the H frame, seeing as how almost all the electronics would scale over to the larger platforms int he future (radio, FPV, flight controller, ect...).

seems like getting up there cheaper and getting our feet wet (hopefully just our feet and not the multirotor) is the way to go.

my only concerns are still the flight time and the lifting ability... can an H quad be a long flight rig with a gimbal gopro?

As Craftydan says, at first, -take it slow -build cheap -build light -build easy-to-fix. And always assume something will be wrong or go wrong.

No matter how much confidence, and unless you have a lot of easy cash to blow, building complex and big will highly likely be a heartbreak at some point if you're totally new to the hobby.

We've seen the heartbreak here and at other forums numerous times. So much so, many people leave the hobby from the frustration and anger at themselves for trashing several hundred dollars from over exuberance.

i'm starting to understand the forewarning...

as long as i can fly a larger size H frame quad long distance and long times with a gimbal'ed gopro... i think thats my target for now.

thanks again all for the advice.

 

[Craftydan]

he wants to be FPV flying long distance asap, if i handed him a $100 mini he'd be pissed

i'm trying to do this as smart as possible, knowing we have no business LOS flying a raw multi...

this is why i'm so adamant on getting all the cheater gear to keep it safe and stable and RTH.

so we aren't just flushing cash.

I understand where you're coming from. I'm not saying this as a harbinger of doom or a seeker of fail but as someone who hates to see positive enthusiasm destined for disapointment . . .


The above quote is a recipie for disaster.


Even the "cheater gear" setup by a compitent but inexperienced builder needs a compitent pilot to test the gear. Even when it's working, eventually this gear will fail, and when it does, only the skill of the pilot can bring the craft to a recoverable location in a safe manner for both the craft and any who might be around.


If you have no business flying a LOS multi without autopilot, you have no business sending the craft *beyond* LOS under it's own control.


Launching an airframe into the air autonomously only to watch it fly in a random direction never to be seen again is flushing cash. Every time.

I am kindly advising you (becasue I want you to succeed), if you are not the pilot, either convince the "pilot" to learn to fly on a simple inexpensive trainer quad, or let the oportunity pass to someone else. It GENUINELY sucks to have an expensive craft go fully autonomous and fly away never to be seen again, and this will end with the builder blamed for the detail they missed from inexperience. *Someone* operating this craft should be able to operate it without the aid of the autopilot, if for no other reason to than test the gear.

You are always free to ignore the experience of others, but even the best control boards are not to be trusted blindly. Keep in mind, while Josh Scott may like *flying* an APM based quad, he did not build/tune/setup the quad himself -- that was done by an expert, and thoroughly tested before being handed off.

The minimum experience you need to be stepped through the testing is being able to fly the craft on it's own. If you can't do that, you are litteraly betting the project against one disastrous maiden flight. I recommend hedging that $2k bet with $50-100 worth of training gear as a wise investment.

 

[octodreamerFNG]

I understand where you're coming from. I'm not saying this as a harbinger of doom or a seeker of fail but as someone who hates to see positive enthusiasm destined for disapointment . . .


The above quote is a recipie for disaster.


Even the "cheater gear" setup by a compitent but inexperienced builder needs a compitent pilot to test the gear. Even when it's working, eventually this gear will fail, and when it does, only the skill of the pilot can bring the craft to a recoverable location in a safe manner for both the craft and any who might be around.


If you have no business flying a LOS multi without autopilot, you have no business sending the craft *beyond* LOS under it's own control.


Launching an airframe into the air autonomously only to watch it fly in a random direction never to be seen again is flushing cash. Every time.

I am kindly advising you (becasue I want you to succeed), if you are not the pilot, either convince the "pilot" to learn to fly on a simple inexpensive trainer quad, or let the oportunity pass to someone else. It GENUINELY sucks to have an expensive craft go fully autonomous and fly away never to be seen again, and this will end with the builder blamed for the detail they missed from inexperience. *Someone* operating this craft should be able to operate it without the aid of the autopilot, if for no other reason to than test the gear.

You are always free to ignore the experience of others, but even the best control boards are not to be trusted blindly. Keep in mind, while Josh Scott may like *flying* an APM based quad, he did not build/tune/setup the quad himself -- that was done by an expert, and thoroughly tested before being handed off.

The minimum experience you need to be stepped through the testing is being able to fly the craft on it's own. If you can't do that, you are litteraly betting the project against one disastrous maiden flight. I recommend hedging that $2k bet with $50-100 worth of training gear as a wise investment.

yeah i guess i misspoke...

i think it will be far easier to fly FPV for me than LOS. i'm a video game guy, it makes sense to me to fly that way.

even better if the onboard flight controller is able to make things easier (more stable, loiter mode) for me.

sooner or later, weather you are an experienced pilot or not... gear failure can/will happen... and if you are doing long distance FPV it's not like you can bring it back when you go blind anyway...

that's what the RTH button is for right

i'm just trying to take the learning curve out with a little extra funding.

buying a cheater board to help me not crash, buying FPV gear so i don't "get turned around", buying something that can bring the drone home if the worst happens...

i look at all of that like insurance.

IMO, i feel like i'm much more likely to crash a cheap machine than one that is so much easier to fly.

 

[Tritium]

NO WAY build your own! Recipe for disaster with no experience flying, building, setting up, repairing or any of the other thousand skills you will need.

Take a look here for some commercial craft and still you will need at least 250 of those thousand skills you would need to build and fly your own creation.

http://www.foxtechfpv.com/multirotor-products-c-79.html

Also if in the USA then such a business is not currently legal. If not then ignore this comment but check your local laws.

Thurmond

 

[stay-fun]

IMO, i feel like i'm much more likely to crash a cheap machine than one that is so much easier to fly.

Without proper setup, that big machine not easy to fly. At all. And if you don't know how to fly, you can't tune.

I'm pretty sure EVERYONE on this forum will advise you to learn on a mini quad. The mini quad can take a lot of beating before you actually break something... Something that can not be said about the big octo.

CraftyDan has made it very clear I think. Teach yourself how to fly. You may not want to fly LOS, but it's something you can't go without. You may think you don't need LOS, but trust me, you do.

Additionally, get a simulator.

 

[octodreamerFNG]

NO WAY build your own! Recipe for disaster with no experience flying, building, setting up, repairing or any of the other thousand skills you will need.

Take a look here for some commercial craft and still you will need at least 250 of those thousand skills you would need to build and fly your own creation.

http://www.foxtechfpv.com/multirotor-products-c-79.html

Also if in the USA then such a business is not currently legal. If not then ignore this comment but check your local laws.

Thurmond

my heavily watermarked flattened images and video are free, my video and image editing services (sans watermark) are not.

but thanks for the link.

i'm 36 years old, i'm not an idiot kid

i've been a carpenter/woodworker most of my life, i've built my own wireless pyrotechnic firing systems, i'm a tinkerer by nature.

i'm not going to buy a RTF kit, m just not that guy.

if i buy the parts to put this thing together, then learn to fly it, there's no turning back.

flushing $a grand on a RTF machine with none of the stuff i want seems like a terrible waste of money.

i appreciate the concern, but i guess i'm a little more confident in my ability to build and learn than you guys are.

it's not rocket science i just don't have any idea what parts to buy.

thats why i'm here.

if anyone is willing to help me put together a parts list so i'm not buying the wrong parts i'd greatly appreciate it. if i crash it, it's my money, but at least it won't be because i put a bunch of missmatched parts together.

 

[x0054]

sooner or later, weather you are an experienced pilot or not... gear failure can/will happen... and if you are doing long distance FPV it's not like you can bring it back when you go blind anyway...

This is exactly why in US when you fly FPV, you have to keep the vehicle in the line of site. People who have been flying for years feel comfortable about flying a little out LOS, when they know that their equipment is solid and no one is around. I don't want to be a dick about it, but attitude like this is in part why FAA is breathing down everyones neck about FPV. So you want to build on a budget a large span octo, load it with a few kilos worth of batteries and gear, and start flying it FPV. And then it goes on a mission of self discovery, runs out of juice, and falls like a rock on someones head. You (or the pilot) get prosecuted for manslaughter and the FAA come down and bans FPV all together. It's really reckless to take up in the air a huge craft like that if you are not proficient at flying LOS.

Also, flying LOS isn't some kind of rite of passage people try to convince you that you have to take. It really is easier flying LOS, honestly! I fly FPV and I fly LOS. I learned how to fly quite recently. I also just turned 30, and have played a ton of video games in the past. I am also fully trained in micro manipulations due to the nature of my family business. So, my hand to eye coordination is excellent. First time I flew FPV on a stable platform running latest APM hardware, I crashed.

If you think you can do better, please, at least do so really, really, really far away form people yo can injure. If you are serious about starting you business, take your time. Get a toy quad and learn how to fly it well. Then build or buy a big quad with a gimbal and an FPV system. You should fly it LOS at first, with an FPV monitor setup to guide your shot. You can do all that on the cheep, and if you are dedicated, you can shoot those videos of the golf corse in 2-3 months.

Please, what ever you do, don't kill or injure people and bring more bad publicity to this hobby.

- Bogdan

 

[octodreamerFNG]

This is exactly why in US when you fly FPV, you have to keep the vehicle in the line of site. People who have been flying for years feel comfortable about flying a little out LOS, when they know that their equipment is solid and no one is around. I don't want to be a dick about it, but attitude like this is in part why FAA is breathing down everyones neck about FPV. So you want to build on a budget a large span octo, load it with a few kilos worth of batteries and gear, and start flying it FPV. And then it goes on a mission of self discovery, runs out of juice, and falls like a rock on someones head. You (or the pilot) get prosecuted for manslaughter and the FAA come down and bans FPV all together. It's really reckless to take up in the air a huge craft like that if you are not proficient at flying LOS.

Also, flying LOS isn't some kind of rite of passage people try to convince you that you have to take. It really is easier flying LOS, honestly! I fly FPV and I fly LOS. I learned how to fly quite recently. I also just turned 30, and have played a ton of video games in the past. I am also fully trained in micro manipulations due to the nature of my family business. So, my hand to eye coordination is excellent. First time I flew FPV on a stable platform running latest APM hardware, I crashed.

If you think you can do better, please, at least do so really, really, really far away form people yo can injure. If you are serious about starting you business, take your time. Get a toy quad and learn how to fly it well. Then build or buy a big quad with a gimbal and an FPV system. You should fly it LOS at first, with an FPV monitor setup to guide your shot. You can do all that on the cheep, and if you are dedicated, you can shoot those videos of the golf corse in 2-3 months.

Please, what ever you do, don't kill or injure people and bring more bad publicity to this hobby.

- Bogdan

here's what i'm not getting... or perhaps what you guys are overlooking...

do any of you honestly think i'm going to screw and solder this thing together, and maiden it long range FPV?

i mean honestly don't you guys think i'd be hovering it around in my backyard for weeks/months before i even thought about taking it out over the river and over a uninhabited island?

i understand the concern, but i can assure you i don't plan to just take it off the bench, mash the sticks and hope for the best.

if anything the DIY aspect of this, at least for me anyway, ensures that i would be doing extensive testing before i trusted it to carry a $400 gopro.

i guess i just don't quite understand the point of buying smaller cheaper RTF craft, just to "learn the basics" when that's exactly what i'll be doing with whatever i build (and at this point i'm leaning more twords an H quad).

bravo for preaching saftey, and wanting to protect the hobby... as a guy who shoots firework shows, and sells consumer fireworks... i not only understand that... i appreciate it.

but every case is different, and it's not always best practice to assume everyone who is new to the hobby is a mouth breathing irresponsible idiot who wouldn't take the time to learn how to fly their investment before setting it loose on riskier tasks.

by the end of the week i'm going to start buying parts, i came here to get advice so i didn't waste my money on the wrong parts...

instead this thread is turning into a trip to the woodshed for the new guy.

and again... i understand and appreciate the focus on safety...

but lets move past the part where you guys think i'm going to send a drone into a crowd of senior citizens and helpless children the first day i plug it in.

give me the bennifit of doubt that i'll take responsible baby steps with whatever i build and help the new guy make the right decision instead of discouraging the new guy to build the thing he came here for.

is there a build list for a H frame quad that will carry a gimbled gopro, FPV, and have a controller that has stability, loiter, RTH, ect...

thats all i really need.

didn't mean to cause a problem, that was not my intention.

 

[stay-fun]

You're seriously underestimating this. Mark my words.

 

[octodreamerFNG]

You're seriously underestimating this. Mark my words.

thank you for your concern, if you have any advice on what parts to buy to build an H frame quad i'd appreciate it.

 

[jhitesma]

it's not rocket science i just don't have any idea what parts to buy.

As someone who has spent more years building and flying large and medium power rockets and has a good friend who currently builds them for the government....

You're right. But not in the way you think.

Rocket Science is easy compared to building a large heavy lift multicopter and learning to pilot it FPV.

It's also easier from a legal standpoint in the US but that's another topic.


What you're talking about is diving right into the deep end when you haven't even dipped your toe in the shallow water. Heck you haven't even got your swimsuit on yet


I'm working on my 4th build right now am still taking it step by step - getting it flying reliably without FPV first. Once it's locked in and reliable I'll be adding GPS to assist me with FPV flying but GPS is never something to rely on, it's like a rear windshield wiper on a car - kind of nice to have in some circumstances but there's a reason most cars don't bother to include it and not having it won't keep you from driving. Heck I'm not even putting my FPV gear on just yet since I'm still dialing things in and flying FPV basically resets your experience back to level 1 or 2 to put it in gamer terms

There are a lot of skills to learn and master if you're going to make a business out of this. As with any skills that takes time, dedication and a willingness to fail as you progress. Right now it sounds like you're in pretty deep denial about dealing with the inevitable failures and not interested in putting in the time. I strongly suggest you re-read some of the great advice here and take it to heart. This is a long hard road that can be pretty rough at times - but there are great rewards if you stick it through. If you try to avoid the road chances are you'll either take a much longer and more expensive path to those rewards or you'll never find your way to them.

This is meant to be motivational rather than dire sounding...but my wife tells me my attempts to encourage her at things are demotivating so I should probably just shut up now

 

[x0054]

If you are really serious about learning, but you also really want to have a gimbal right away, I would look at the TBS Discovery frame with a gimbal. Something like that:



I really personally like the look of those frames, and they fly really nice. And, they do look "professional," so you can play the part when you sell your business to people. Plus it's a popular frame, so a lot of people list their flight times and configs for those frames. So you can easily pickup a list of parts you need.

While your waiting for your parts to arrive, pickup a Proto X miniquad from amazon or something. It's the best $40 you will spend at the beginning of this hobby. You may not believe me, but flying that little Proto X around your house will prepare you well for taking the real thing for a spin, honestly.

The rest, people gave you some good recommendations. Buy a good charger, a lipo charge bag (lipo batteries are dangerous), a Radio system like 9X with a FrSky module for instance, and a good soldering iron. Research you FPV options. For board camera I use 600TLV, and it works well. I use Fatshark gear for FPV, but if I was to buy my gear all over again, I would buy something else to be honest. Long range FPV isn't necessary, 5Ghz gear with proper antennas should take you as far as your 2.4Ghz controller will. Later on you can upgrade to UHF, which has it's pluses and minuses. I do not know much about UHF, but it's not something you need to video a golf course any way.

As for FC as I mentioned, you need either Ardupilot or DJI. Do some more research and make your choice there. That's about it. Good luck, and post your build. If you come up with a parts list of stuff you researched and liked, I am sure people will chime in and give you more recommendations.