Receiver signal loss at FliteFest 2022

[kdobson83]

I am no RF expert by any means. But I can provide my experience with this same issue and how I somewhat resolved it for me. I have been to FF 3 times. My first year, 2019, I was using a Spektrum dx8e with lemon Rx's. I had zero issues with signal loss during normal flying. But every combat I would lose signal, sometimes as early as 10 seconds after launch, some a few minutes in. I did notice however, that the further away I flew from myself, the worse the problem was.
2020 was the no FF year. So during the two years in between 2019 and 2021 Flite Fests, I had switched my radio to a Jumper tx16. I decided to change my RX's in my combat planes over to some Flysky RX's that I had laying around. FF 2021, I had little to no issue. I say little because my radio would scream "signal critical" at me if I flew more than 200 or so feet away during combat. But no complete signal drops. FF 2022 I had changed over to the Radiomaster tx16s with edgetx. I was also using Radiomaster branded d16 RX's in my combat planes. Very similar results as 2021. No issues outside of combat, and in combat it only yelled at me if I was out 200 feet or so.

This year could indeed be better if the guys figure out a way to reduce interference from those oil pumps.

So, my opinion, try a different less used protocol. Spektrum being the most popular, will have the most issue during combat, at least this was my experience. I personally love my Radiomaster tx16s. Gives me the opportunity to bind to almost any protocol RX out there. You could also try adding some redundancy to your combat planes. Add a satellite RX, orientate all your antennas differently.

 

[wilmracer]

I'll be very curious to know if they actually have a fix worked out. I'll be putting redundant receivers in everything I don't mind losing. I'd feel a lot beter if the FT folks could negotiate to have transmissions shut off from those rigs during the event, or at least get a schedule for when they occur.

 

[FishbonesAir]

Someone had mentioned problems with FlySky at Flitefests past on Facebook Flitetest group? Anyone know anything about that, or could it just be related to this? I was a little worried since I'm using a FlySky FS-I6X. That's on the AFHDS 2A protocol. I really don't want to add "replace radio" to my laundry list of things to do to get ready for FF2023.

 

[Tench745]

Someone had mentioned problems with FlySky at Flitefests past on Facebook Flitetest group? Anyone know anything about that, or could it just be related to this? I was a little worried since I'm using a FlySky FS-I6X. That's on the AFHDS 2A protocol. I really don't want to add "replace radio" to my laundry list of things to do to get ready for FF2023.

Everything has had issues at FF. I don't know what they've done to mitigate interference this year, but I don't think you're at more significant risk with FlySky than any other radio.

 

[FishbonesAir]

Everything has had issues at FF. I don't know what they've done to mitigate interference this year, but I don't think you're at more significant risk with FlySky than any other radio.

Okay, good to hear. I find out tomorrow whether my doc is gonna clear me to go, or play operation this month. They're gonna do it sooner or later, I'm just hoping for later. The recovery would make Flitefest impossible this year.

 

[Yankee2003]

Okay, good to hear. I find out tomorrow whether my doc is gonna clear me to go, or play operation this month. They're gonna do it sooner or later, I'm just hoping for later. The recovery would make Flitefest impossible this year.

I hope for the best. First and foremost do what is best for you and your family.

 

[mikeehuber]

Checking...

Sponz any word on the radio stuff for Flite Fest??

 

[SP0NZ]

Sponz any word on the radio stuff for Flite Fest??

Nothing yet.

 

[LitterBug]

Really wish I had an SDR that worked up to the 2.4ghz band. Could fly it on my Stratosurfer on a ArduPilot mission. Be interesting to see heatmaps at different times along with protocol analysis.

 

[mikeehuber]

That would be cool, I've only been flying for a few years, but not having the radio work was one of the weirdest feelings! It always happened over those oil rigs!

 

[RossFPV]

Any idea if its any height over the oil rigs or just nearby? This is my first flite fest and want to be sure i have some planes left for combat.

 

[mikeehuber]

Any idea if its any height over the oil rigs or just nearby? This is my first flite fest and want to be sure i have some planes left for combat.

You will be fine, there is plenty of room to fly away from the oil rigs. It'd be better if they figure out how to shield them. Because some people did have some brownouts flying mid flight line, but it's so periodic. It wasn't like it happened all the time. You'd think with all of the radio nerds showing up somebody could figure it out.

 

[LitterBug]

I did a little experimentation (all LOS) this year at FF'23 with a few different planes, 2 transmitters, different protocols, different locations at the field, ETC with OK results, the failures (few) were of my own fault in post analysis. My camp site was on the far east end of the field so I had more flights there than any area of the field. I did not fly any past the end of the west most runway with anything other than my Stratosurfer which I was able to fly LOS the full length of the field from the far East side of the field.

Nano Goblin 1
Frsky R9M 900 Mhz with INAV FC - RadioMaster W/ R9M module
No issues anywhere or RSSI alerts at any time. Flew from out front of west build tent, center stage, and east side of field. Above/around east oil rig

Nano Goblin 2
Frsky R-XSR diversity 2400mhz with FT Aura5 - RadioMaster AIO integrated
No issues anywhere or RSSI alerts at any time. Flew from Center stage and east side of field. Above/around east oil rig.

Strix StratoSurfer
FrSky R9 900mhz with ArduPilot FC - RadioMaster W/ R9M module
No issues flying anywhere or RSSI alerts at any time. Flew several times from far east side of the field the whole length of the field LOS at high, low ,far out by/above trees, past both oil rigs, and at the front edge of the corn.

FlexRC Owl 3" quad #1 with Borris the spider on board - RadioMaster AIO
LemonRX DSMX Diversity Satellite Reciever 2400mhz
No issues flying Center stage during Combat Friday Afternoon. Ran whole pack to 0% during Combat at which point Borris acted as a aero drag aid to soften the descent from 80ish feet

FlexRC Owl 3" quad #2
LemonRx DSMX Satellite with single stubby antenna mounted close to the top/front of carbon frame - RadioMaster AIO
No issues running Li-ion pack Center Stage Friday evening to test whether a slightly heavier 3200mah 25A max draw Li-Ion pack could supply enough punch to fly a 3" quad with a spider for full duration of a combat. (Plausible) the 1050 lipo on above could not come close.

Below is where I did not always have ideal results.

RMRC Mako Elevon wing.
Spektrum AR400 pwm DSMX RX - RadioMaster AIO
First flight was from far east side of field with no radio issues. Fairly short flight as the rates were so low It took the whole depth of the field to make a turn to the far tree line, around the east oil rig, and land. ( One huge circle)
2nd flight went bad and I nosed in. After the walk of shame out past the east oil rig I discovered I had not remembered to pull the antenna out of the canopy opening before closing up and launching. The antenna was resting against the 3S 4200mah Lipo. THIS WAS MY FAULT!
After some glue and tape was applied, I poked a hole in the fuselage and permanently made sure the antenna was in a proper location. Added some light strips to prepare for night flying and test flew from the east build tent-ish part of the field. After initially plugging the battery in, the radio was constantly loosing and regaining telemetry. Unplugged plane, rebooted radio, and re-plugged in after which it was then fine. It is plausible that the ELRS TX module may have gone into WIFI config mode causing a RF conflict at close range. Going to bench test that scenario at a later date. Flew around quite a while trying to see if the lights I added would be enough for total dark flying. No Problems! But decided I needed to add lights to the top of the fuselage.
Took it out after dark with two more strips added to the top of the plane from the east build tent area. Started out great, but as I got more confident and started pushing harder and doing some full stick movements I had a power brownout after overloading the BEC. Ended up nosing in. THIS WAS NOT a protocol/RF issue and was MY FAULT. USE A SEPERATE BEC for auxiliary loads!!!!

RMRC Nano Skyhunter
LemonRX 7 channel PWM Diversity RX - RadioMaster AIO / Spektrum DX8
Stripped all the FPV gear/FC/GPS and put a PWM RX in it. Flew it from around the east build tent and didn't have any real certain issues, but felt as if the may have been some possible brief glitches. Never got any Signal warnings from the radio, but did make some minor changes after the flight.
Re-oriented the 2nd antenna to be 90 degree angle from the one sticking out of the top of the plane and out the side of the plane. 2nd antenna was previously inside the fuselage and potentially next to the ESC. Also Bound up my DX8 at the same time so the next two flights were not necessarily definitive knowing if it was reorienting the antennas, the different TX, or the combination of both. No issues the next 2 flights from center stagish area.
Thought about throwing it in the final combat of the day but was not overly confident keeping orientation with the light at that time of day and decided to bail on that.

Cheers!
LitterBug

The test fleet

The Transmitters/R9M module

 

[Foamforce]

We had good luck too. I flew most of the combats and didn’t have any signal loss. I was using a RadioMaster TX16S transmitter with a FlySky FS-ia6b receiver. Fwiw, my radio did report telemetry loss several times, but it seems like the telemetry signal is always weaker than the transmission.

 

[Bricks]

Many of the problems with Spektrum is some of the older radios and receivers still uses DSM2, in a crowded flying area these are more prone to giving greif then the newer DSMX protocol. The Lemon 6 channel is still DSM2 and many older Orange receivers are also DSM2. I also believe many get a bad bind by having the receiver and radio too close and flooding the receiver causing a weak bind.

As Litter Bug proved the higher frequencies are less prone when there are not a lot of planes running those frequencies which makes perfect sense. Those frequencies can still suffer signal loss if there are many flyers using them as the available band width is not nearly the same as 2.4.

 

[LitterBug]

Had an interesting conversation with a pretty knowledgeable person helping someone having issues during combat on a dual ESC nutball. He recommended SEVERAL changes which they implemented resolving their issues. 1, RX was moved away from the ESC. 2, got rid of the bec wire from one of the ESCs where it plugged into the RX. You do not want to have multiple BECs powering the same power bus at the same time. It will most likely introduce noise on the power running the RX and servos. 3, he may have had one of the vendors on site wire up a custom harness and BEC to run the RX on a different BEC than the servos. The thinking behind this was that damage during combat had made the control surfaces bind up putting additional load on the ESC BEC. With a dedicated RX power source, even if the ESC BEC browned out, the RX would not lose connection.

The conversation I had with the other helper afterwards revolved around the difference between DSM2 and DSMX. NEITHER are full spread spectrum channel hopping. DSM2 grabs 2 channels and sticks with them all the time. If those two channels get saturated, the link is hosed. I thought DSMX was SSCH. It is actually the same as DSM2 but with one additional hopping channel, better, but still not great.

Here's the thing though, even if you have a better protocol or running on a different frequency band, you can still hose yourself with bad RX placement, a bad or power source that is not capable of handling the load of servos at high torque loads and high throttle (sagging battery), and having BECs rated at too low of a power rating causing low voltage (brownout)

Brownout and signal loss are two different issues but can both cause very similar symptoms. A brownout can cause signal loss especially if the voltage is so low it causes the RX to restart/reboot. Signal loss is less likely to cause a brownout unless for some reason the RX causes the servos to swing wildly drawing more power. If you are having issues, find someone more experienced to look over your build to get to the root cause rather than just assuming it must be an outside signal causing the issues.

LB

 

[mikeehuber]

Many of the problems with Spektrum is some of the older radios and receivers still uses DSM2, in a crowded flying area these are more prone to giving greif then the newer DSMX protocol. The Lemon 6 channel is still DSM2 and many older Orange receivers are also DSM2. I also believe many get a bad bind by having the receiver and radio too close and flooding the receiver causing a weak bind.

As Litter Bug proved the higher frequencies are less prone when there are not a lot of planes running those frequencies which makes perfect sense. Those frequencies can still suffer signal loss if there are many flyers using them as the available band width is not nearly the same as 2.4.

My problems in FT 2023 came with the DSM2 receivers only. Now I know! Last year, my DSMX had issues too. Something changed with those oil rigs! Awesome time at FT again!

 

[Ryan O.]

Everything has had issues at FF. I don't know what they've done to mitigate interference this year, but I don't think you're at more significant risk with FlySky than any other radio.

I had intermittent failsafes with both frsky d8 and spectrum dsmx. One of the times was during combat and the plane started flying at head level towards the flight line until I regained control at the last second. Previous years I’ve only had one failsafe and I think I had a total of 5 this year.

 

[LitterBug]

My problems in FT 2023 came with the DSM2 receivers only. Now I know! Last year, my DSMX had issues too. Something changed with those oil rigs! Awesome time at FT again!

DSM2 is well known to be a problematic protocol.

There is nothing special about the Oil rigs. It's the distance from the pilot in a congested RF environment in combination with gear choices, placement, orientation, and condition.

LB

 

[LitterBug]

I had intermittent failsafes with both frsky d8 and spectrum dsmx. One of the times was during combat and the plane started flying at head level towards the flight line until I regained control at the last second. Previous years I’ve only had one failsafe and I think I had a total of 5 this year.

Fail-safes or brownouts?