What is a "Warbird"?

Konrad

Posting Elsewhere
Guys,
What are you using as a definition for “Warbird”. Mine is; an aircraft which was derived from the nation’s military industrial complex with the purpose of extending the nation's influence by the threat or actual killing of combatants. I know this leaves “Trainers and transports” out in the cold. But when discussing war I think Napoleon said: Amateurs discuss tactics; the professionals discuss logistics. So I can see an argument in support of military trainer and transports being “Warbirds”.

I was asked not to fly a warbird in racing colors at a recent warbird event as it wasn’t painted in “military" colors. So I ask what is a warbird? What are military colors? So the colorful aircraft of WW I are not warbirds? The between the wars aircraft like the P6-E and P-26 with their yellow wings aren’t warbirds? The military demonstration teams like the Blue Angles and Thunder Birds aren’t warbirds? All are products of the nation’s military industrial complex. To my eyes a warbird is more than a layer of paint with a set of stars and bars on the side or a swastika on the fin.

At a “warbird" fly in I fail to understand why only guys with young eyes would be allowed to fly. Splinter camouflage or low visibility paint jobs are very effective at hiding aircraft. Just what we don’t want when flying and trying to control our RC aircraft.

So what is your take as to what is a warbird?

All the best,
Konrad
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
Anything produced for and used by any given countries military in my book.

Paint schemes vary as there are full dress paint schemes and operational paint schemes as well as show schemes. I think you may have crossed paths with someone who's nose is out of joint because it was not painted scale and that person may have taken it as a sign of disrespect. Its even quite possible that maybe he had actually flown what you brought to fly and took it even more personal?
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
My definition is any aircraft used in bringing the fight to an enemy and includes almost all types except for possibly basic trainers and the like. BUT just because the war finished before the production does not mean that a plane is not a warbird because the war was finished before the plane was built.

Basically the finish of a plane does not make it a warbird and neither does when it was manufactured but rather it is the pedigree that is all important.
 

Craftydan

Hostage Taker of Quads
Staff member
Moderator
Mentor
Long and the short of it . . .

It's what the CD of the event says a "warbird" is.

Most will be more concerned with the livery than the airframe, so a grasshopper is in, but a cub is out. A Beechcraft B17L (Civilian staggerwing) is out but a C17L (military Staggerwing) is in. In this mindset, a P-51 fighter from any squadron (even with incorrect markings) is great, but Miss America? Nope.

. . . but the operative word there is "most". Some will let any and all airframes that had a military variant fly, jut to keep planes in the air. Some will restrict the flightline to only airframes that deliver munitions in a destructive manner, sometimes even with limits to the era. Generally, it depends more on popularity and theme of the event. The busier the flight line, or the more defined the theme ("WWI Warbird Fly-in") the more restrictive the CD will be.

At flying events, the CD is king. The worst that can happen to them from saying "no" is they don't get stuck with the job next year. Keep that in mind when trying to persuade them to open the rules a bit.


Now as for what I think constitutes a warbird . . . depends.

If we're talking flying characteristics, I lean toward the "munitions delivery" definition. Bombers and fighters. I define these as custom designed airframes for a purpose of creatively delivering destruction -- it's these requirements that make their flight envelopes distinct. A handful have been repurposed for racing leagues, but on the whole they have one purpose and become museum and historical pieces after decommissioning.

If we're talking historical or "scale" perspective, anything owned and operated by the military counts, but here, the paint matters. Accuracy matters, although one man's "worst" is another man's "close enough". A yellow cub is still a civy bird.

Under these umbrellas, a properly painted, marked and modified cub (even without the bazookas) is an L-4 Grasshopper -- a tried and true warbird -- but in flying characteristics, it entirely lacks "Warbird Tendencies".
 

F106DeltaDart

Elite member
Amazing! Really makes me want to redo the new HK FPV Navy Cub in his paint scheme.. I wonder if you could shoot some nerf dart "bazookas" at some German tanks.. :D
 

Konrad

Posting Elsewhere
Crafty Dan,

Yes, the CD is king. But he must rule inside the constitutional constraints that is the rule book.

Now most "War Bird" meets are fun flys and not governed by the AMA scale rule book, rather just the AMA safety code. My issue is that a guy is invited to travel a great distance to fly his "War Bird" then is asked not to fly it as it is in the wrong war paint. For the record my War Bird was a Bell P-39 as Cobra 1 (red paint).

I'm just trying to cut down on ambiguity in the rules. I really have no issues with the CD wanting X Y or Z, just make it clear so that we the participants can comply with the rules.

Or like this thread. What goes here under "War Birds"? Is it appropriate that I post my Ugly Stick in Red Baron Red with black iron crosses as I'm calling it a stand way way off scale Eindecker.

All the best,
Konrad
 

F106DeltaDart

Elite member
I would say that a warbird is any airplane that served in the military painted in a military scheme. That counts trainers, demo teams ect.. However, reno racers like Strega and Voodoo are so highly modified that is is hard to call them warbirds in a contest environment. I would also count covert military forces like the CIA "Air America" aircraft as warbirds, since they were serving a military purpose as well, but that might just be me.
 

JimCR120

Got Lobstah?
Site Moderator
I like the definitions given for warbirds. I think we're mostly on the same page.

Someone conducting an event however might be after a certainl look and in this instance your plane didn't fit with the look he was after. Whether his expectations were too rigid or not is debatable but it was his job to do, his call to make. I assume you did make your case at the time and he didn't bend. I understand your frustration. No one likes unmet expectations.

My recommendation for future problems like this is to politely and carefully articulate your opinion after hearing the goal, purpose, and opinion of those in charge. By doing so you can offer a point that either follows theirs or redirects theirs in a direction they might be willing to go. In the end the final decision is theirs and then we get to choose to take it or leave it.
 

earthsciteach

Moderator
Moderator
Again, seems like a bunch of silliness to me. The Cobra 1 is a stunning paint scheme. Its on a P-39, which is certainly a warbird. But, I'm excited just to see any nice model fly.
 

JimCR120

Got Lobstah?
Site Moderator
My issue is that a guy is invited to travel a great distance to fly his "War Bird" then is asked not to fly it as it is in the wrong war paint.

I'm just trying to cut down on ambiguity in the rules. I really have no issues with the CD wanting X Y or Z, just make it clear so that we the participants can comply with the rules.
Here I think is the meat of your contention. If the powers that be disagree I would seek to have them replaced or else go somewhere else that is clearer about expectations and reasonable when things weren't as clear as they should have been.
 

Konrad

Posting Elsewhere
I have no wish to replace any power that be, well not an AMA CD. It is a thankless job being a CD.

In my case I had brought a lot of other models, yes some in war paint. So it wasn't an issue with me wasting a lot of time traveling only to be denied any flying time. I just put the P-39 away and flew my Su-35, Me-262 and DH-98.

Now I have to ask, would an Me-262 in USA markings be a "War Bird" as the war was over and it wasn't a product of the American industrial military complex.

As to modified ships, would field modified P-51B's with the added dorsal fin be within the scope of a warbird. I'm just asking what does the term "War Bird" mean.

As to a look of the event, it had WW1 to modern Jets. But I got the feeling that most think WW2 when they use the term "War Bird".

I'm just asking what is the definition of "War Bird"? It is used in this forum and it was used to describe a fly in. Yet it looks like there isn't a consensus as to what that term means

All the best,
Konrad
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
I think the answer is to let your fingers do the walking. :)

Call ahead and know before you show or call ahead early and build for the event.

I'm betting AMA CDs would prefer this method to showing up and having them have to deny someone.
 

Konrad

Posting Elsewhere
I would say that a warbird is any airplane that served in the military painted in a military scheme. That counts trainers, demo teams ect.. However, reno racers like Strega and Voodoo are so highly modified that is is hard to call them warbirds in a contest environment. I would also count covert military forces like the CIA "Air America" aircraft as warbirds, since they were serving a military purpose as well, but that might just be me.
Would the Military demonstration teams Thunder Birds, Red Arrows, Blue Angels and the like be military paint? Most are on the nation's militaries inventory and have a line item in the military's budget. After all they are serving a military purpose, recruitment.

As "I" need to see the model to fly it safely, I really like the bright liveries. I hate trying to see Olive Drab and Forest Green in the air, and lets not mention low visibility gray:mad: !

BTW: I don't think of a "War Bird" fly in as contest. I think of it as an excuse to fly without a bunch of 3D or trainer type aircraft to have to dodge. Not that there is anything wrong with 3D and trainer aircraft!

All the best,
Konrad
 

Konrad

Posting Elsewhere
I think the answer is to let your fingers do the walking. :)

Call ahead and know before you show or call ahead early and build for the event.

I'm betting AMA CDs would prefer this method to showing up and having them have to deny someone.

I will in the future. But it never would have dawned on me that a P-39 was not a "War Bird" even in red or yellow paint.

If one needs to ask for a legal brief for every term in the contest (fly in) notice then there is something wrong with our language.

All the best,
Konrad
 
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Craftydan

Hostage Taker of Quads
Staff member
Moderator
Mentor
I'm just asking what is the definition of "War Bird"? It is used in this forum and it was used to describe a fly in. Yet it looks like there isn't a consensus as to what that term means

Yup.

That's why I gave two ;)

I'm also not finicky about where those lines fall as long as it's not being used as a bludgeon.

In respect to this forum, we're generally tolerant of "Marginally On Topic" so if the ugly stick with Barron colors gets labeled "warbird", I don't think anyone would mind. Weird, sure, but mind? No.


IMO, this is a hobby, so everyone is free to take themselves as seriously as they like . . . and if someone doesn't want to take it that seriously, it's healthy to keep in mind it's just their hobby ;)