Help! 2nd Brown out in a row, Help!

[Gr8folded]

Hey everyone,

Really hoping you all can help as this latest brown out or whatever has got me wanting to call it quits on the building kits.

That said, I have really enjoyed getting into building powered planes through FT's kits. I am just getting back into the hobby after a handful of years off. However, I flew a lot of slope soarers and BnF powered planes for 6-7 years.

Anyway, my first build was the mustang, and it went very smoothly. As I stated in another post, the maiden was perfect and it was a joy to fly until six minutes in when I lost all control of my plane 50 yds out.

I was using a new Lemon rx 6 channel rx with the dual antennae's and. Spektrum DX6i. I did a range check and binded the receiver according to the manual. I was using a FT 40 A ESC, 2200mah 3S 35C lipo...all per FT recommendations

The community here was very helpful in terms of trouble shooting potential issues, suggesting repair options and saying how the Lemon Rx are solid.

I repaired the plane and was really happy with how it turned out. I moved the rx to above the power pod, sitting on the top of the fuse deck and oriented the antennae to 90 degrees.
Everything seemed to be set up as good as possible. See pic

I remaidened my plane and it flew great. I was surprised how you are able to repair these planes and get them flying. Unfortunately, 2 - 3 mins in I lost all control again (no engine, no control surfaces) 50 yds out. The plane nosed in at a 45 degree totaling the front end again and destroying the motor.

When I got to my plane I moved my sticks and everything worked properly.

Do I have a faulty RX? Could it be a faulty ESC from FT. I'm new to building, which is why I stuck with the recommended power pack (C).

The hours of building and repairing have been rewarding, but the very short time flying has left me frustrated, scratching my head, and wondering if I should just give up the build your own process... Not sure what I am doing wrong. I am a capable flyer, followed instructions to a T, used the recommended electronics, I am finishing a Simple Stick currently and have a Bushwhacker waiting as well. However, I'm am wondering if those will suffer the same fate. Maybe, I'll just build them and not fly them? ;/

Any input or suggestions would help.

Thanks

 

[CappyAmeric]

I don’t use RadioMaster, Lemon, or Orange on models that I am not ready to crash. They work MOST of the time…

Spend the extra and get Spektrum they simply don’t fail (this from someone that has abandoned Spektrum transmitters).

 

[Gr8folded]

I don’t use RadioMaster, Lemon, or Orange on models that I am not ready to crash. They work MOST of the time…

Spend the extra and get Spektrum they simply don’t fail (this from someone that has abandoned Spektrum transmitters).

Thanks Cappy. I had a few Spektrum receivers queued up to buy for this plane and other kits, but kept hearing about Lemon RX and them being a great deal. However, in hindsight, the extra cost of Spektrum rxs...and them not failing...would certainly be worth it in terms of the repair time, replacement motor, and reduced frustration.

The only other thing that came to mind is could it have been due to the servos being taxed too much? I did reinforce the hinges with glue, but wiped them off as explained. I them worked them back and forth as well. They still had more resistance than a BnF plane though. I can't imagine that being the case, otherwise this would be happening to a lot more folks.

 

[Bricks]

How is your battery and what size? Does your motor get hot running full throttle? Stiff control surfaces can stress the servos pulling more amps then the ESC can handle or a servo or more then one going bad. Your not pointing the transmitter at the plane while your flying. By you mentioning you were only 50 feet away I believe you are suffering a power issue.

Could be why your range checks are OK because your not stressing the power draw from the ESC and battery. with out the motor running. Try running up the motor and work the servos to simulate actual flying conditions for at least the length of time and distance of your flights to see if you loose power.

Anchor your plane by the tail spin up the motor and walk away while operating control surfaces and see if the problem replicates.

 

[Gr8folded]

How is your battery and what size? Does your motor get hot running full throttle? Stiff control surfaces can stress the servos pulling more amps then the ESC can handle or a servo or more then one going bad. Your not pointing the transmitter at the plane while your flying. By you mentioning you were only 50 feet away I believe you are suffering a power issue.

Could be why your range checks are OK because your not stressing the power draw from the ESC and battery. with out the motor running. Try running up the motor and work the servos to simulate actual flying conditions for at least the length of time and distance of your flights to see if you loose power.

Anchor your plane by the tail spin up the motor and walk away while operating control surfaces and see if the problem replicates.

Thanks for the reply Bricks. I'm running the recommended 2200mah, 3S 35c lipo on the FT recommended motor- 2217 1180KV. Nothing seemed overly hot each time.

While the surfaces are somewhat stiff I imagine they are same for everyone... did build them exactly as the video showed wiping away all excess hot glue when reinforcing the hinges and flexing them back and forth.

That's a good suggestion on trying to replicate it at the bench. I'll try to figure out a way to hold everything down to do that effectively and safely.

On the note of the slightly stiff control surfaces, I just finished building a simple stick and the control rods that come out of the tail of the fuse definitely experience a lot more resistance due to the design of placing the servos up front and having long push rods . I've cut out the foam slits further near the tail to reduce this, but it isn't exactly free of resistance.

In hindsight, I'm thinking I should've just reposition the servos at the back of the fuse on the outside...or repositioned the servos inside the fuse to face outwards, cut slots in the fuse and ran the guides along the length of the outside of the fuse.

Or maybe just cut off all the control surface and do a tape hinge?

Then again, so many people love this build, and how it flies... I haven't heard of any issues caused by the resistance of the servo and push rod placement. That said, I would hate for the same issue to happen on my second plane and 3 times in a row.

Building these kits sounded pretty straightforward and easy if you follow the instructions and use the proper electronics. Unfortunately, I haven't found that to be the case and I'm second guessing if this is actually normal and acceptable. Seems like a lot of people enjoy flying these planes without any issues (aside from operator error).

Thanks again!

 

[Foamforce]

You said that your motor cut out. That could also be because of failsafe so I wouldn’t rule out a signal loss. Maybe you could set up failsafe in a recognizable manner so that you would know if it engaged. Like maybe a moderate amount of left rudder plus some up elevator. Then if you see it start circling left when you lose signal, you’ll know it’s signal loss vs brownout?

Regarding brownouts though, the two solutions are an external BEC, which is only about $7, or a glitch stopper, which is just a $5 capacitor that you plug into your receiver. That said, I’ve only had one instance of something like this happening out of about 15 planes that I’ve built and I’m still not sure if that was a brownout or a signal loss. The built in BEC ought to work just fine for normal builds with 4 servos and it’s frustrating to not know the root cause.

 

[Gr8folded]

You said that your motor cut out. That could also be because of failsafe so I wouldn’t rule out a signal loss. Maybe you could set up failsafe in a recognizable manner so that you would know if it engaged. Like maybe a moderate amount of left rudder plus some up elevator. Then if you see it start circling left when you lose signal, you’ll know it’s signal loss vs brownout?

Regarding brownouts though, the two solutions are an external BEC, which is only about $7, or a glitch stopper, which is just a $5 capacitor that you plug into your receiver. That said, I’ve only had one instance of something like this happening out of about 15 planes that I’ve built and I’m still not sure if that was a brownout or a signal loss. The built in BEC ought to work just fine for normal builds with 4 servos and it’s frustrating to not know the root cause.

Great advice. I'll look into adjusting the Gail sage as well as either the external BEC or glitch stopper. My ESCs all have a 4 or 5 amp rating which should be sufficient for 4 servo planes as you said.

My main goal here , as I'm sure it is with most everybody else, is to have the rewarding experience of building something that flies and saving some dollars while doing it. Right now, for whatever reason, I've only managed to accomplish the building portion with a small taste of the flying 😄...meanwhile the "saving some dollars" portion is not working out so well with having to buy new engines!

Thanks again!

 

[Merv]

What size servos & how many are you using? What is the amp rating of your BEC? Are you flying hard or just doing lazy circles?

The typical 9g servo will draw 3/4 of am amp. A 3 amp BEC should be able to drive 4 9g servos. If you are doing lazy circles, it’s no problem. If you are flying hard, this might cause a low voltage brown out.

 

[Gr8folded]

What size servos & how many are you using? What is the amp rating of your BEC? Are you flying hard or just doing lazy circles?

The typical 9g servo will draw 3/4 of am amp. A 3 amp BEC should be able to drive 4 9g servos. If you are doing lazy circles, it’s no problem. If you are flying hard, this might cause a low voltage brown out.

40A Flite Test ESC with 5A BEC. Four servos and the recommended 1180 KV motor. Definitely not flying lazy circles, but also not full throttle, except for short bursts.
This is essentially the recommended flite test package bought directly from flite test

 

[quorneng]

Gr8folded
How are the rx aerials positioned?
They should be at 90 degrees to each other and preferably as far away as possible from things like servos, the motor or even the battery. This can be quite tricky to achieve if fuselage space is limited.
The TX aerial if moveable should be sideways and not pointing directly at the plane.

 

[Merv]

Has you Rx been in a crash? Have the antennas been damaged?

I have seen a crashed Rx act like a low voltage brown out. I have also seen damaged antennas act like a low voltage brown out. Everything works until you get some range away. Then it fails. With the antennas, has it been cut short. Also take the cover off the Rx and look where the antenna enters the case. Is there any damage to the coax? Even a small nick can cut your range. If you have duel antennas, one may be good and one damaged. Which would answer why it passes a range check yet fails at range.

 

[Gr8folded]

Gr8folded
How are the rx aerials positioned?
They should be at 90 degrees to each other and preferably as far away as possible from things like servos, the motor or even the battery. This can be quite tricky to achieve if fuselage space is limited.
The TX aerial if moveable should be sideways and not pointing directly at the plane.

Antennas were positioned at 90°, and the receiver was moved up above the fuse deck inside the canopy.

 

[Gr8folded]

Has you Rx been in a crash? Have the antennas been damaged?

I have seen a crashed Rx act like a low voltage brown out. I have also seen damaged antennas act like a low voltage brown out. Everything works until you get some range away. Then it fails. With the antennas, has it been cut short. Also take the cover off the Rx and look where the antenna enters the case. Is there any damage to the coax? Even a small nick can cut your range. If you have duel antennas, one may be good and one damaged. Which would answer why it passes a range check yet fails at range.

First Brown out was with a brand new receiver. A lemon receiver six channel with two antennas where you can see all the components. Second brown out was with the same receiver. Inspected antennas all were undamaged and in place. The clear shrink wrap covering gives you a better line of sight into the receiver. Range check confirmed everything was in working order.

 

[basslord1124]

Some things from my personal experience...

First off. I had used Lemon Receivers for years...never had an issue

While many factors can contribute to a brownout....I think the most common thing to look at (and what Bricks mentioned) is more power/battery related. Some folks play the blame game and blame the product manufacturer for brownouts instead of looking at possible causes. If you could get a multimeter hooked up and/or watt meter to your setup and hook it up on the workbench that can tell if you there is a lot of excess amp draw or perhaps the battery voltage is sagging too much causing the brownouts. A servo that binds or is stiff will definitely draw more amps to make a control surface move. If the draw gets too much at times, there is not enough clean power to power your receiver causing it to glitch/brownout.

Always possible you got a bad battery that loses charge too fast.

Another thing too....what sorts of battery/ESC connectors are you using? Also are you some sort of adapter between your ESC and battery? Adapters (Ex: XT60 to IC3, XT60 to Deans. etc) have a high possibility of giving you trouble. And between the ESC and battery connectors there could be a possible of a bad/loose solder joint.

Just some more food for thought. Hope this helps.

 

[quorneng]

Gr8folded
Note the actual 'aerial' is just the last 'non black' bit. The black is a shielded coaxial cable that does not pick up any signal.
In your installation they may be at 90 degrees when static on the ground but the airstream and the prop wash would soon blow them so they were lying more or less parallel to each other.
Just an observation.

 

[Gr8folded]

Some things from my personal experience...

First off. I had used Lemon Receivers for years...never had an issue

While many factors can contribute to a brownout....I think the most common thing to look at (and what Bricks mentioned) is more power/battery related. Some folks play the blame game and blame the product manufacturer for brownouts instead of looking at possible causes. If you could get a multimeter hooked up and/or watt meter to your setup and hook it up on the workbench that can tell if you there is a lot of excess amp draw or perhaps the battery voltage is sagging too much causing the brownouts. A servo that binds or is stiff will definitely draw more amps to make a control surface move. If the draw gets too much at times, there is not enough clean power to power your receiver causing it to glitch/brownout.

Always possible you got a bad battery that loses charge too fast.

Another thing too....what sorts of battery/ESC connectors are you using? Also are you some sort of adapter between your ESC and battery? Adapters (Ex: XT60 to IC3, XT60 to Deans. etc) have a high possibility of giving you trouble. And between the ESC and battery connectors there could be a possible of a bad/loose solder joint.

Just some more food for thought. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the insight on this, I appreciate it. As a newbie to the building powered planes (flown for 6-7 years and built a bunch of slope soarers), I'm not sure where to even start. Having a lot of experience building scratch slope soarers, I'm fairly confident I built the quick build kit spot on to the build video. Not knowing what electronics to pair together at this stage, I opted for the smart/safe route and bought this flight test power pack, which is the exact recommended electronics for most of their swappable planes.

FT Power Pack C Radial v2

The Flite Test store is the perfect place to find RC plane kits, DIY quadcopters and Flite Test apparel.

store.flitetest.com

I used two different batteries for both the brown out/ loss of all power episodes. The batteries were brand new and fully charged.
The reason I bought the lemon receivers is because they have gotten very good reviews and most people have had great experiences with them.

Could certainly be something else... the 40 A ESC has a five amp BEC, I used the proper motor, prop, and battery...and the plane was built correctly.

I did talk to Eddie at Flite Test and he said that he and others have had the same exact issues, and after spending a fair amount of time tracking down the source, he was able to identify a high school's security system and a remote oil pump turning on. Eddie said at multiple Flite Fest's many flyers experienced brown out symptoms which synced up with the exact time the oil pump on the outskirts of the field remotely turns on. Eddie mentioned that at both locations, where he and others have had this situation occur, there was a sweet spot that you had to hit for it to happen. Evidently they are working with the owner for this year's fest to switch the times the pump turns on.

So I was flying at a high school, and both brown outs occurred in generally the same area. However, I had no issues with two other planes using Spektrum RXs. Perhaps as someone mentioned the Lemon Rx are good, but have slightly less insulation from interfering signals.

Either way, Although the field is absolutely perfect for flying planes (nice landing zones and ample room) the easy solution is to switch flying locations, use a Spektrum receiver, and possibly build up confidence again in the lemon RXs with my twice rebuilt Mustang

Unfortunate though, as open public space (which doesn't outlaw RC planes) out here in the front range of Colorado is very limited.

Thanks again

 

[quorneng]

My money is still on loss of signal rather than a brownout.
The Lemon Rx are good between 3.9V & 8.5V. You would have to work a 5V 5A BEC very hard to drop to 3.9 V unless there is some resistance somewhere between the BEC and Rx. Of course it is possible but unlikely that the BEC inside the ESC is itself faulty.

 

[Gr8folded]

Went out today to re-re-re-maiden my twice crashed and repaired Mustang due to inexplicable power loss/brown out.

Switched out my receiver to a Spektrum AR410. Same motor, same ESC, same battery (3S 2200). The Flying site was new and about a quarter to half mile down the road from the site in question.

No issues at all. Successful flight and smooth landing. Seven minutes flight time with about 3.8 V remaining in each of the three cells.


At this point, it's either the lemon receiver or some 2.4 GHz signal from the high school security system as Eddie at Flite Test suggested.

Regardless, after a month of building, repairing twice and 10 minutes of cumulative flight time, it's nice to finally fully appreciate building, flying, and landing a plane in one piece without any fatal power system issues.

Next maiden will be the Simple Stick and have the Bushwacker and Simple Storch queued up to be built.

Thanks to everyone for your input and help on this. I appreciate it.

 

[Tench745]

That sounds like you've solved the issue, excellent!
A little aecdote about interference; I lost two planes to the interference at Flite Fest and had at least one more lose signal briefly, but was able to recover. The pumps took out an OrangeRX, a Spektrum, and an FRsky. The interference there can be quite brutal and broad-spectrum.

 

[Foamforce]

One possible way to combat losing signal, besides getting a better signal, is to use a gyro with level mode, like this one. If you set up your fail safe to neutral sticks, and then set up the fail safe for your gyro mode switch to level mode, then when you lose signal, it will level out and stay level as it glides down. I have one of my planes set up this way and I’ve bench tested it, but I don’t have the guts to try out IRL. 😂

Hobby Eagle A3 Pro V2 Flight Stabilization Gyro-HEA-AC-6472

valuehobby.com