50mm EDF Tailed Delta Project
- Thread starter Vimana89
- Start date
Awesome!!! It looks great!
Vimana89
Legendary member
sad story.. wind died down enough before it was dark to maiden. 3s did not achieve adequate thrust to weight. I pulled out the 30% charged 4s just to see if I could get lift and a couple passes. Still not getting lift. A bit of it is CG relat d but it's almost entirely thrust, weight, and lift as well as wing loading. The plane is in one piece, just one piece that doesn't fly. I'm going to have to do something different with this EDF, a lighter build with more wing surface. I do have another F radial power pack though so in the mean time while I reassess, I'm gonna build something fun and basic with that. Maybe another delta, a multi wing, or a tandem plane.
Vimana89
Legendary member
This is going to take some tweaking and figuring out to get anything to run right on my 50mm setup. This plane came out too heavy, too low aspect, and too underpowered to support everything. I will get what video I can for documentation off the cam, but its pretty straight forward. The plane is stable and responsive to control, but doesn't have the thrust to weight/wing loading to fly. Sorry to disappoint, I am definitely pretty bummed about it myself. I will be back to the drawing board with the EDF thing soon enough, but for now, expect another build on 2205 Radial. It will possibly be something really simple, but it's looking strongly like another multi wing project which will be pretty basic but not a four hour build by any means.
L Edge
Master member
Why don't you take the fuse and tail part off, change to elevons the delta segment, mount a vert stab above the thrust tube and go for it.
Better yet, mount on top TV tube, a rudder with servo to reduce yaw movement.
It is identical to first model I played with. You do need to use rudder for control or cut down center, put 4 degrees of dihederal with re-enforcement and do it.
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L Edge
Master member
You should really try what I suggested.
Highly swept deltas are tough cookies to solve the instability problem. Your tail feathers make it easy. If you try the lighten method, you will get to see the real problems of just deltas. Maybe you can explore and find something to solve that problem. Heck, strip it and try, since what do you have to lose? And it gives you an intro to EDF's. In fact, that is the problem for designing the next generation of jets.
In fact, the coolest I've seen is where they take 3 diamond(delta) and join then together for the long distant flight. Then the 2 in the rear seperate and that makes a swarm of three on the targets.
Highly swept deltas are tough cookies to solve the instability problem. Your tail feathers make it easy. If you try the lighten method, you will get to see the real problems of just deltas. Maybe you can explore and find something to solve that problem. Heck, strip it and try, since what do you have to lose? And it gives you an intro to EDF's. In fact, that is the problem for designing the next generation of jets.
In fact, the coolest I've seen is where they take 3 diamond(delta) and join then together for the long distant flight. Then the 2 in the rear seperate and that makes a swarm of three on the targets.
Vimana89
Legendary member
I'll definitely be taking another crack at some project or another with the EDF, but I'll do it from a clean slate. I decided to just scrap that air frame for parts and my reasoning is this: It's already overweight and not providing enough lift. Chopping the tail plane and getting rid of one servo would have shaved off a little weight, but it would still be a pretty chunky bird, and now since the ailerons would become elevons and serve the elevator function too, they would be losing thrust wash over the surfaces since the EDF sits between them, and being a rolled poster board tube taped on, would make a poor place to mount a new vertical stabilizer and rudder. So maybe with some work I could have got such a thing in the air, but doubt it would have been a particularly good flyer.
I really do love the tailed delta configuration, but can't seem to think of a way to lighten it much more for a 50mm EDF build. I will continue to ponder that question, but right now I'm looking at two tailless alternatives.
1.) A low aspect 20" span by 30" chord just like the one I just tried to build, but no tail and no box fuselage, just a foam strip reinforcing spine along the bottom like some of my early delta builds. 4ch, elevons and rudder, with the EDF situated to provide wash over the control surfaces.
2.) A higher aspect delta wing sized more like my Vulcan, with a 30" span by 20" chord. I could also just use a spine reinforcement and avoid a big box fuselage. 4ch elevons and rudder. This one would have more inherent stability than the low aspect designs and should be pretty straight forward.
I'll update with some rough sketches of some of these ideas and configurations and/or when I've decided what way I'll try this next.
I really do love the tailed delta configuration, but can't seem to think of a way to lighten it much more for a 50mm EDF build. I will continue to ponder that question, but right now I'm looking at two tailless alternatives.
1.) A low aspect 20" span by 30" chord just like the one I just tried to build, but no tail and no box fuselage, just a foam strip reinforcing spine along the bottom like some of my early delta builds. 4ch, elevons and rudder, with the EDF situated to provide wash over the control surfaces.
2.) A higher aspect delta wing sized more like my Vulcan, with a 30" span by 20" chord. I could also just use a spine reinforcement and avoid a big box fuselage. 4ch elevons and rudder. This one would have more inherent stability than the low aspect designs and should be pretty straight forward.
I'll update with some rough sketches of some of these ideas and configurations and/or when I've decided what way I'll try this next.
L Edge
Master member
Totally disagree with you. You should have tried it before you took it apart.
If you took off the tail feathers and under carriage, you would have just the weight of the board, EDF and electronics. It would be super light.
Your ailerons just become elevons and you already have a rolled tube for the EDF(it wouldn't lose thrust even if removed), so all you had to do is glue a vert(try first without it) before you even try a rudder. The EDF exhaust on yours sits between the surfaces, so explain how it loses thrust wash over the surfaces?
My first config was like above without the blended body and rudder control. It was a flat piece in a delta config. I added the extra pieces to see what would happen.
The point I am trying to make is if it doesn't work, do the necessary(your was weight) mods to get it to work. If you design, every little thing you learn about shapes, is worth it. When I designed the X-47B, this was based on the delta info I learned in the process.
Vimana89
Legendary member
I haven't scrapped it yet. I had only stripped the aileron servos and the ailerons were a bit dinged up and not the most ideal for elevons anyway from my standpoint. I had not actually broken the plane down very much yet. What I ended up doing is chopping the whole tail end(which still has servos wired and can be used for another quick project). I also chopped what remained of the old ailerons, and will attach new elevons. I took out the Y harness and other cables related to the rudder and elevator servos. I cut the tops of my winglets, I want to extend those into vertical stabilizers. I have some trimming and lightening I can do to the box fuselage still to shave off more weight. I will take your advice and re-use this air frame after some more refitting and lightening work is done.
jfaleo1
Junior Member
Agreed. Don’t scrap until it is “scrap”. Use it to experiment and rework, 2 versions into Tie Strikers, 5 versions of the quintet, a lot of work and changes to @JGplanes white diamond including a couple 50mm EDF. Not all worked well but I learned from each one ( on the Tie Striker it was to duck), I like the fixes you are working on, keep going and good luck.
L Edge
Master member
Agree with jfaleo1 that you should give the "white diamond" a shot. It is an plane that handles winds nicely, I scaled it up and made a prop and 64EDF and of course added a rudder and it will give you an experience with delta EDF's.
Vimana89
Legendary member
Always thought the White Diamond was cool. I'll give it a shot if this one and/or my next design fail. I have lightened/restored/transformed my delta. It is now tailless with good elevons and only weights 455g fully loaded, compared to the 575+ grams it weighed on maiden wth the tailed setup. I am trying on 3ch first just to get it flying, then I'll worry about adding a rudder to this or the next version.
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Vimana89
Legendary member
I'm hoping I have the opportunity to maiden this tailless version tomorrow morning. The tailed one flew around really low for few seconds before just not maintaining lift when I put it on 4s weighing close to 600g. Hopefully this means at 455g it will not only fly, but have decent handling and power.
jfaleo1
Junior Member
Looks good, a lot of weight trimmed down, should be better for sure. Remember, if it does not fly well you can still learn something from it. But from my angle looks pretty cool, and should work ok.👍🏻
Vimana89
Legendary member
The elevons were/are actually helpful, because as I expected having messed around with a lot of low aspect deltas, this one had a nose down tendency from weight and would have had bad elevator punch otherwise.
Vimana89
Legendary member
So I maidened and realized camera wasn't charged right. Trying to charge it some now. The plane flew, but crashed twice as is seemed to lose lift unexpectedly. I'm thinking due to stuff I noticed it may have been a technical issue like the EDF nacelle coming loose or channel three wire disconnecting. The only aerodynamic explaination is wing loading and downward momentum could be too much. The plane is repairable which I'm doing as the battery and camera charge. I've used a much stronger mounting agent(😆) for my nacelle. Les see if I can at least get a good launch and a crash on video if not good flight this time.
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Vimana89
Legendary member
Hopefully the cam got all of what just went down. I had one more really bad flight and almost plowed it into the neighborhood but managed to bring it around and into the dirt. I was pretty frustrated but it looked like it could hold up for another launch, so I did it for science. I managed to actually fly this plane for a good bit and bring it in safely even though the battery ran out during flight. It's a bit tubby for its wing style and size, and not an ideal flyer or trainer, but it does work, and I've learned a lot about how EDF planes handle as far as throttle.
Vimana89
Legendary member
Here is a short compilation of both flights, but the camera must have shut off or ran out of power before finishing the second(and successful) flight. As that one progressed I got the hang of it more and more and even managed to do a good roll, but that part cut off. I also explained that part of it was the weight, but part of it was getting used to the way the EDF accelerates.
I plan to fix up, reinforce, and even lighten the plane a bit further even though its kind of beat up already, that way I can at least get some training on it.
I plan to fix up, reinforce, and even lighten the plane a bit further even though its kind of beat up already, that way I can at least get some training on it.
