Brand new and need a little guidance
- Thread starter davidkdk
- Start date
Hai-Lee
Old and Bold RC PILOT
It is definitely a matter of opinion, In the case of our club a LEGAL opinion!
I hope your luck holds out! Sadly I do not understand your attitude of advising others to undertake a procedure that has in the past demonstrated it has an attached risk factor! There is enough pressure on the hobby now without advocating risky behaviors as well!
But then some opinions will never change regardless of the evidence! Heck some still believe the earth is flat!
Have fun!
davidkdk
Member
I'll see what's in my area. The process you describe would make for a smooth introduction. Thanks.
There's been some great advice here!
A couple notes to add. Do not feel intimidated at being a beginner. We all were at one point, and some of still are, even after years of "flying".
If you go to a club and encounter a jerk, try going back a different day . There's usually one in any group, so you just happened to meet the one at that club.
If there's more than one club in your area, visit them all, you may click better with one than the others.
Make use of our regional section of the forum and maybe you can find someone on here that's in a club near you.
A couple notes to add. Do not feel intimidated at being a beginner. We all were at one point, and some of still are, even after years of "flying".
If you go to a club and encounter a jerk, try going back a different day . There's usually one in any group, so you just happened to meet the one at that club.
If there's more than one club in your area, visit them all, you may click better with one than the others.
Make use of our regional section of the forum and maybe you can find someone on here that's in a club near you.
I can't understand why you're being like that. I have a lot of experience in this matter. i would tell anyone that it's perfectly safe.
Hai-Lee
Old and Bold RC PILOT
I will push safety of persons and the continuation of responsible RC flying above all.
That you have plenty of experience is not the question though you seem to believe that it is. The issue is that others DO NOT HAVE your level of experience or expertise. I will not condone anything that may bring problems or even possible tragedy to another RC fledgling. I will promote the safest and most responsible way to get the maximum enjoyment out of our hobby! By all means you continue with your practices as you are responsible for them. But please always give the BEST and safest advice to those who are starting out!
As for my position it is based upon the latest safe thinking in a litigious environment. As technology advances things change and even methodologies evolve to make things better and safer. IF a safer method is available we owe our hobby and our charges what is best and safest in all things! Since we implemented our last safety audit on procedures including teaching methods we have not had a single crash involving a student under training. We have had a single crash on a advanced student, (on solo), who lost orientation and that is all.
From my own early EXPERIENCE it is hard to enjoy flying when all you seem to be doing is crashing and repairing in a seemingly endless loop with no real signs of improvement. That was the old way! There are many different posts in the forum where the stodgy old school thinking has been mentioned as reasons for drifting away from the hobby. Our club here is growing due to our efforts to give the best possible start to all newbies.
You are not under attack! The advice you gave was not suited to ALL newbies! I tried to give the safest and most appropriate advice. Should you be offended I assure it was and is not my intention but rather to promote what is the SAFEST method for training! When you hand a TX to someone there is a period of time where No one is actually controlling the plane whereas a buddy box system either the instructor or the trainee are in control there is no in between switch position!
Have fun, (Safe fun)!
Hmmm! That doesn't fit with the general laissez faire attitude I see on this forum and promoted by the Flitetest guys. Sure, safety is important, but that just seems way over the top to me. I was helping a guy last week. We passed the transmitter from one to the other several times. None of the other club members batted an eyelid, nor did they make any comments. It was just business as usual.
Hai-Lee
Old and Bold RC PILOT
Is it possible that you cannot accept that anyone might believe that you could possibly be doing anything that someone could consider as unsafe? What you managed to do last week has little to do anything I am sure that some people have done some crazy and dangerous things in the last week but they are not trying to get others to make the same mistakes or claim such things are perfectly normal and safe. As for the other club members it might be that they refrain from confronting you because they know you. I am starting to understand how determined and argumentative you can be as we discuss this matter. Business as usual is not a statement of how safe things were. That an accident has not happened does not mean that it NEVER will!
Having been a properly trained and certified workplace health and safety officer in my time I can assure you that "It has always been done like that" is definitely not a legal defense especially when safer methods or procedures are well known and widely publicized.
I recommend that you do as you wish and bear all responsibility for things that arise from your actions. Just allow others to think, use their experiences, (different to yours), and promote the safest methods currently available. There are 2 ways to avoid accidents, pure luck and planned procedures using the latest information and technology available. Let me recommend the latter!
have fun!
I understand what you're saying, but where we disagree is on how unsafe it is. I think your argument takes us down a very slipery slope. You could use a similar argument for any accidents. People crash planes regularly, and there's always a cause. How many planes have you seen crash when IC engines cut immediately after take off, despite the owner doing everthing to make sure it was running correctly first? Do you therefore ban IC engines? What about the guys that had battery connection issues. Should we ban batteries? What about mid-air collisions. Do we ban more than one pkane being in the air at the same time? Should we shrug our shoulders and say that these things are just one of the hazards of flying? No, we analyse why it happened and try to control that in the future, not start banning things.
I keep saying this and I'll continue to defend my opinion on it because I've done it a lot with absolutely no problems. In fact, I've crashed 4 of my planes in the last 6 months. Looking back, I'd say that I've spent considerably more time training people without a buddy box in my entire career than the flying time in those 6 months. I never had a crash while training anybody and I never saw or heard of an accident while doing that, though I concede that one could be possible. A pragmatic person, statistician, insurance company or extreme club safety officer could very easily look at these statistics and determine that theres considerably more risk in normal flying than when training someone leading to a rule that you can't any longer fly normally, you can only fly in a training situation and without a buddy box.
Hai-Lee
Old and Bold RC PILOT
You still argue that just because you do not have any issues or problems in passing the transmitter that no one else could ever have an issue and so to advise against it is somehow an insult to you! Your hard thought out arguments in relation to the operation of gas engines, and faulty battery connections, etc., whilst valid are the personal responsibility of the pilots concerned and as such as their responsibility.
There are a number of known risks in the hobby which we should do our best to minimize for all concerned. Each and every risk should be assessed and mitigated if possible. To ignore one safety issue because there are other matters of safety that cannot be eliminated does not make sense!
As an instructor I assume personal responsibility and liability for the trainer aircraft during the training session. We do give introductory flights to those spectators who are interested in RC flight. For a quick reference to what I have been espousing please refer to the last paragraph on page 24 of the document to be found at; https://www.vmaa.com.au/Instructor-Docs/instructors-handbook.pdf
Even though you did admit that there is a tangible amount of risk in playing pass the transmitter you also added some form of self promoting statement on your willingness to argue indefinitely for your right to give advice which you as stated has a risk attached. Yet all I was trying to get through to newbies is that buddy box training is safer than pass the transmitter.
Is this jousting because I dared to have a different opinion and advice than you espouse and I dared to publish my different position? As for continuing this discussion you could start your own thread to discuss this, start a survey, or even move it to PM format I am willing to follow your argument for as long as you wish it, because in all fairness we have used too much of this thread and possibly even hijacked it a tad with our discussion.
As for the original thread poster I apologize for the apparent hijacking and if the other party is willing we can continue it elsewhere. Had I known the other party was quite so determined to have his own way regardless of risk, I would have suggested we move the discussion far sooner!
Have fun!
There are a number of known risks in the hobby which we should do our best to minimize for all concerned. Each and every risk should be assessed and mitigated if possible. To ignore one safety issue because there are other matters of safety that cannot be eliminated does not make sense!
As an instructor I assume personal responsibility and liability for the trainer aircraft during the training session. We do give introductory flights to those spectators who are interested in RC flight. For a quick reference to what I have been espousing please refer to the last paragraph on page 24 of the document to be found at; https://www.vmaa.com.au/Instructor-Docs/instructors-handbook.pdf
Even though you did admit that there is a tangible amount of risk in playing pass the transmitter you also added some form of self promoting statement on your willingness to argue indefinitely for your right to give advice which you as stated has a risk attached. Yet all I was trying to get through to newbies is that buddy box training is safer than pass the transmitter.
Is this jousting because I dared to have a different opinion and advice than you espouse and I dared to publish my different position? As for continuing this discussion you could start your own thread to discuss this, start a survey, or even move it to PM format I am willing to follow your argument for as long as you wish it, because in all fairness we have used too much of this thread and possibly even hijacked it a tad with our discussion.
As for the original thread poster I apologize for the apparent hijacking and if the other party is willing we can continue it elsewhere. Had I known the other party was quite so determined to have his own way regardless of risk, I would have suggested we move the discussion far sooner!
Have fun!
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You've misinterpreted what I said. Let me try again. There are lots of risks in flying, but I'm certainthat the risk of a crash when training somebody without a buddy-box is less than many of the other avoidable risks we encounter in normal flying, but nobody is enforcing bans on them. In fact we already had someone mention the risk of a buddy lead being pulled out during training and there's an account documented here:
https://www.flitetest.com/articles/wireless-buddy-box
That could easily happen if someone stood on it, and I bet that's happened many times, but nobody is banning buddy-leads or buddy-box training. I've also heard of bluetooth problems with wireless systems. In fact there was a rumour going around as recently as May this year about a bug in a Spektrum system.
Like I said in my first post, there are advantages and disadvantages in both methods. I prefer my method and I think it's abhorrent that anyone would call it a safety issue or want to ban it. You obviously have a different opinion, and you're entitled to that. I'm not going to say any more on this matter in this thread. People can read the arguments and judge for themselves. It's not for us to impose on their choices.
https://www.flitetest.com/articles/wireless-buddy-box
That could easily happen if someone stood on it, and I bet that's happened many times, but nobody is banning buddy-leads or buddy-box training. I've also heard of bluetooth problems with wireless systems. In fact there was a rumour going around as recently as May this year about a bug in a Spektrum system.
Like I said in my first post, there are advantages and disadvantages in both methods. I prefer my method and I think it's abhorrent that anyone would call it a safety issue or want to ban it. You obviously have a different opinion, and you're entitled to that. I'm not going to say any more on this matter in this thread. People can read the arguments and judge for themselves. It's not for us to impose on their choices.
basslord1124
Master member
We all begin different ways. There probably have been some who transitioned from a RF transmitter to a DX9, I don't know for certain though. I say explore your resources and the information you've been given and see what path works for you. Perhaps you will find an awesome club that is incredibly helpful OR maybe you'll have no luck with clubs and go straight to self taught through simulators and such. Like I said, we all begin this journey in different ways.
I started with a crappy cell phone app RC simulator (before I ever hit the air) to a 4 channel foamy Piper Cub that I constantly crashed. Then I went to a Hobbyzone Champ (3 channel micro foamy) and had an absolute blast. Then I started trying 4 channel again with success with a Sport Cub S, a balsa 40 size trainer, and even a low winger T28. And actually from my experience, I didn't even care for the SAFE system in the Sport Cub S. And it was also around this time, that I finally got a good simulator program AND joined a club. So, I'm a little backwards.
I started with a crappy cell phone app RC simulator (before I ever hit the air) to a 4 channel foamy Piper Cub that I constantly crashed. Then I went to a Hobbyzone Champ (3 channel micro foamy) and had an absolute blast. Then I started trying 4 channel again with success with a Sport Cub S, a balsa 40 size trainer, and even a low winger T28. And actually from my experience, I didn't even care for the SAFE system in the Sport Cub S. And it was also around this time, that I finally got a good simulator program AND joined a club. So, I'm a little backwards.
JTarmstr
Elite member
When i learned to fly i dealt with the problem of crashing by flying in a cow pasture which didn't have cows in it at the moment. However not everyone has that luxury. Saying SAFE is dangerous is kind of silly in my opinion, SAFE doesn't help you avoid the plane eating trees, it keeps you from doing anything that would result in high energy impact with the ground. Whats better is to put it in intermediate and remember where the SAFE switch is, that way you can recover from any bad mistakes.
As for pass the transmitter its obviously not as good as buddy box. However not everyone has an extra transmitter. i don't really understand how this is a horrible safety issue, as long as you are flying in a empty field if the airplane crash's, only injuries are to the plane and the grass. Use common sense when flying and stuff like that wont be a huge issue
Also as Gazoo said this is why i fly alone
As for pass the transmitter its obviously not as good as buddy box. However not everyone has an extra transmitter. i don't really understand how this is a horrible safety issue, as long as you are flying in a empty field if the airplane crash's, only injuries are to the plane and the grass. Use common sense when flying and stuff like that wont be a huge issue
Also as Gazoo said this is why i fly alone
Another way to start if you have some money and you want to do it on your own is to get one of the Hobbyzone RTF planes with the SAFE plus technology, like the Champ+ or the Carbon Cub S+. These planes can literally fly themselves with no input from the pilot at all. Just open the throttle to take off and press the land button to land. At any time, you can take control yourself, and there are three modes which go from loads of assistance to none, so that you can take more control as you become more competent.
There is one proviso though: You must read and follow all the instructions, and there are quite a lot of them. You also need a concept of what's happening because there are a few constraints on when you can auto-land and where you can fly. Like anything, it's very straight-forward and logical, once you have it figured out.
I must admit that I do like the way it lands and takes off with the stabilisation on. It looks just like a real plane.
You can also get those planes a bit cheaper as BNF versions, which means you have to get your own Spektrum transmitter. That brings the added complication of setup, but means that you can use your transmitter for other planes. The RTF version comes with a Spektrum DXe transmitter, but it seems to be locked. Note that there are two versions of he DXe transmitter. There's the one that comes with these RTF planes and another that you buy on its own, which you can distinguish by its two extra switches. It can be used with any Spektrum DSMX/DSM2 receiver or a compatible one.
The transmitter setup for the RTF versions is again straight-forward if you know what you're doing. Perhaps if you bought the stuff from a model shop, they'd do the set-up for you.
There is one proviso though: You must read and follow all the instructions, and there are quite a lot of them. You also need a concept of what's happening because there are a few constraints on when you can auto-land and where you can fly. Like anything, it's very straight-forward and logical, once you have it figured out.
I must admit that I do like the way it lands and takes off with the stabilisation on. It looks just like a real plane.
You can also get those planes a bit cheaper as BNF versions, which means you have to get your own Spektrum transmitter. That brings the added complication of setup, but means that you can use your transmitter for other planes. The RTF version comes with a Spektrum DXe transmitter, but it seems to be locked. Note that there are two versions of he DXe transmitter. There's the one that comes with these RTF planes and another that you buy on its own, which you can distinguish by its two extra switches. It can be used with any Spektrum DSMX/DSM2 receiver or a compatible one.
The transmitter setup for the RTF versions is again straight-forward if you know what you're doing. Perhaps if you bought the stuff from a model shop, they'd do the set-up for you.
Hai-Lee
Old and Bold RC PILOT
As I said I teach!! I also want others to have fun and enjoy the hobby responsibly. As it appears that you have not bothered to read the paragraph I mentioned previously I will copy it out for you. It is from the MODEL AERONAUTICAL ASSOCIATION OF AUSTRALIA INC. Instructor Handbook! Here the MAAA is our hobby's national representative body to Parliament working hard to keep the hobby free for all to enjoy and it has to continuously argue against legislative reprisals caused by those who refuse to listen or learn what is good for both themselves and the wider RC community.
The aforementioned paragraph:
"Final word
The buddy box system is invaluable when teaching someone to fly. While it may take a little while to get the two transmitters set up the rewards will outweigh any effort put into to it. If you are not using a buddy box system to train people to fly radio controlled aircraft, then you are taking a big risk with the aircraft (either yours or theirs) and are you are doing it the hard way. Good instructors use the most appropriate aids to teach and the buddy box is essential."
As for your own argument I quote, "It's not for us to impose on their choices.", I am not imposing upon their choices but I am choosing to point out that buddy box training is the preferred, safest, and best way to go. As for your apparent effort to highlight problems in using the buddy box connections true there are risks but easily circumvented if identified and addressed. The risk of pass the transmitter is known and is best nullified by using buddy box training with of course controls in place to minimize any associated risks.
As you are withdrawing from the discussion and having not offered any alternate platform I assume your position is one of a person who has learned something a long time ago and cannot update their procedures or habits in light of modern technological developments. My position is effectively a National position and the advice I gave is the best and safest in light of current technology!
Rules are only oppressive if they conflict with what we have learned or been taught to do. If we give the latest, (most modern), advice and train persons in the safest, (current), procedures then there is no oppression but rather a uniform set of rules for the benefit and safety of all!
I await a venue of your choice to continue with your education if you so wish!
Have fun!
There's been some great advice here!
A couple notes to add. Do not feel intimidated at being a beginner. We all were at one point, and some of still are, even after years of "flying".
If you go to a club and encounter a jerk, try going back a different day . There's usually one in any group, so you just happened to meet the one at that club.
If there's more than one club in your area, visit them all, you may click better with one than the others.
Make use of our regional section of the forum and maybe you can find someone on here that's in a club near you.
I cannot like this enough.
Let me give a perfect example of this:My father and I live about 30 mi. apart, in San Diego County. He's part of an RC flying club called the Weedwackers Aero Squadron (VERY nice people). They love having new club members, but they really don't have anyone who can train people to fly, except for maybe 1-2 club officers who aren't at the field every weekend.
I mention this not to ding them in any way, shape, or form, but that's just the way it is with them - they don't have enough instructors.
On the other hand, MY club in the northern part of San Diego County, has a great set of instructors, and they even have club planes to instruct with. The downside is that my club only does instruction on Monday nights during the summer months, once there's a change to Daylight Savings and it stays light until around 8 pm. Trying to learn on a Saturday morning, when there's a bunch of 3D pilots at the field, buzzing around you, or jet pilots who make fast passes and come in over the runway - it's not conducive to learning. I love flying at my field during the week, if i can; but I love flying at my dad's field on the weekends, because it's a more relaxed flying time - the people at his club are more about "Get the plane up in the air, fly it around, tool around with it, and have fun while obeying the safety rules, and 'share the air' with everyone."
Again, not good or bad, just DIFFERENT. My dad will drive 30 mi. every Monday during the summer for flight instruction, and loves working with the instructors at my field, and they're more than happy to work with him. But he also likes his club in his area, because it's kind of a bunch of old guys that wants to get out of the house away from the kids or grandkids.
LOL Be VERY careful with those "auto takeoff and land" planes. One guy at our club decided to get his set up on a table in the pits, and then walked the plane out to the runway.
He took off, cruised around, and then went to show off the "auto land" feature. 2 feet above the runway, the exact height of the table in the pits, the engine cut out completely. The plane thought it was on the ground because of the additional altitude of the table.
This gets back to "READ THE INSTRUCTIONS THOROUGHLY." LOL
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