Cutting foam sheets... with a needle!

[dkj4linux]

Ocean,

I don't know you and/or your capabilities but if you are at all "handy", have a technical bent and a few tools, are patient/persistent, and have a basic understanding of electronics, micro-controllers, and things mechanical... I'd say go for it. Please visit the vicious1.com website (if you haven't already) and take a look at the machine, the myriad ways folks are using it, the availability/price of parts, and read through the forum to see what's going on and what problems are being discussed. Probably the BIGGEST HURDLE is deciding which version to build -- US or International -- especially if you are outside the US. There are actually a couple of versions of the MPCNC -- US (23.5mm OD) and IE (25mm OD) -- and which you build will largely be determined by what conduit/pipe/tubing is available where you are located in the world. There are indeed some "gotchas" that could jump up and bite you but thankfully almost everything in the MPCNC build is pretty robust and can survive the common mistakes/misdeeds that come with building a fairly complex machine for the first time. And -- to address your stated concern -- there's virtually nothing in the firmware or its configuration that you could actually do any permanent damage with.

It does, of course, take more than 3 steppers... MPCNC actually takes 5 NEMA-17 motors but they and all other hardware and electronics are in the hardware bundle I'd strongly recommend you purchase... unless you're just a glutton for punishment. The MPCNC is a large project and -- in addition to the relatively low cost of materials -- will require a considerable comittment of time. The printing of parts alone will require 1-1/2 spools (1 kg) of filament and close to 100 hours to accomplish, if you choose to print them yourself. And your 3d printer will need to be well-calibrated and proven to produce parts that are dimensionally accurate. Check out "jhitesma"'s efforts in this thread for an idea of what's involved.

Once you have all the hardware and printed parts in hand, assembly is much like putting together a very large Erector set project. A person with decent technician skills and a few hand/power tools could put a machine together in a weekend. Check out a build I did recently for a friend while I was developing my brushless motor foam cutter over on the RCPowers forum -- specifically posts #114 through #125 (http://www.rcpowers.com/community/threads/mostly-printed-cnc-and-cutting-foam.18808/). With all parts on hand, I started assembly of that machine on Thursday evening and had the machine assembled and running by Saturday noon. Even took a nap or two along the way

Hopefully this hasn't scared you off. It really is a fun and exciting project to take on... especially if you like to build stuff. Please let me know if I can be of further help. -- David

 

[Ocean]

Ocean,

I don't know you and/or your capabilities but if you are at all "handy", have a technical bent and a few tools, are patient/persistent, and have a basic understanding of electronics, micro-controllers, and things mechanical... I'd say go for it. Please visit the vicious1.com website (if you haven't already) and take a look at the machine, the myriad ways folks are using it, the availability/price of parts, and read through the forum to see what's going on and what problems are being discussed. Probably the BIGGEST HURDLE is deciding which version to build -- US or International -- especially if you are outside the US. There are actually a couple of versions of the MPCNC -- US (23.5mm OD) and IE (25mm OD) -- and which you build will largely be determined by what conduit/pipe/tubing is available where you are located in the world. There are indeed some "gotchas" that could jump up and bite you but thankfully almost everything in the MPCNC build is pretty robust and can survive the common mistakes/misdeeds that come with building a fairly complex machine for the first time. And -- to address your stated concern -- there's virtually nothing in the firmware or its configuration that you could actually do any permanent damage with.

It does, of course, take more than 3 steppers... MPCNC actually takes 5 NEMA-17 motors but they and all other hardware and electronics are in the hardware bundle I'd strongly recommend you purchase... unless you're just a glutton for punishment. The MPCNC is a large project and -- in addition to the relatively low cost of materials -- will require a considerable comittment of time. The printing of parts alone will require 1-1/2 spools (1 kg) of filament and close to 100 hours to accomplish, if you choose to print them yourself. And your 3d printer will need to be well-calibrated and proven to produce parts that are dimensionally accurate. Check out "jhitesma"'s efforts in this thread for an idea of what's involved.

Once you have all the hardware and printed parts in hand, assembly is much like putting together a very large Erector set project. A person with decent technician skills and a few hand/power tools could put a machine together in a weekend. Check out a build I did recently for a friend while I was developing my brushless motor foam cutter over on the RCPowers forum -- specifically posts #114 through #125 (http://www.rcpowers.com/community/threads/mostly-printed-cnc-and-cutting-foam.18808/). With all parts on hand, I started assembly of that machine on Thursday evening and had the machine assembled and running by Saturday noon. Even took a nap or two along the way

Hopefully this hasn't scared you off. It really is a fun and exciting project to take on... especially if you like to build stuff. Please let me know if I can be of further help. -- David

Hi David,

firstly thank you for the detailed reply and offer to help. I would say I am relatively handy at this kind of thing and would love to undertake this project, as well as get into CNC and 3d printing. I have been on vicious1.com and read through the entire guide at one point, as well check what I would need to buy, its fair to say I was pleasantly surprised at how cheap it is, if you have access to a 3d printer. I also noticed that vicious updated the Page on marlin firmware to include what changes you have to make for config.h for the stock printer, which helps if you are a little concerned with the firmware like me.

The 3d printer(s) I have access to is a Ultimaker 2+ as well as a 2+ Extended, I can't really play around with the set up of the printer nor the calibration, however I am told that these are pretty good printers, will this be sufficient for the intricacies of the MPCNC?

I suspect I won't purchase the electronics kit, mainly because I will probably get caught with import duties as I live in the UK, as well as I have 3 decent steppers around (50NCm I believe).

Thanks again for the description

Ocean

 

[dkj4linux]

Hi David,

firstly thank you for the detailed reply and offer to help. I would say I am relatively handy at this kind of thing and would love to undertake this project, as well as get into CNC and 3d printing. I have been on vicious1.com and read through the entire guide at one point, as well check what I would need to buy, its fair to say I was pleasantly surprised at how cheap it is, if you have access to a 3d printer. I also noticed that vicious updated the Page on marlin firmware to include what changes you have to make for config.h for the stock printer, which helps if you are a little concerned with the firmware like me.

The 3d printer(s) I have access to is a Ultimaker 2+ as well as a 2+ Extended, I can't really play around with the set up of the printer nor the calibration, however I am told that these are pretty good printers, will this be sufficient for the intricacies of the MPCNC?

I suspect I won't purchase the electronics kit, mainly because I will probably get caught with import duties as I live in the UK, as well as I have 3 decent steppers around (50NCm I believe).

Thanks again for the description

Ocean

I'd say go for it, Ocean. As I said, the MPCNC is a fun and exciting build... if you enjoy building stuff. And it is exceptionally gratifying to see it move for the first time... it's quite a rush!

As far as the quality of those 3d printers... I'm sure they're fine. And there's nothing special about the MPCNC printed parts except for the number of them and the length of time it takes a typical part to print (3-4 hours for the larger parts). But these parts must be dimensionally accurate... they need to fit together precisely and with minimal fuss/cleanup. The first thing you should check is the availability of the conduit/tubing you intend to use... probably 25 mm OD since you are in the UK. If you can get the 25 mm conduit/tubing, then print an IE corner block (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:790533) and check the fit against a piece of the tubing. If you intend to use more than one 3d printer, you'll want to do this check for each of them.

I guess I'm hearing you say you'll source all your own parts though I'm still puzzled by your mention of the three stepper motors you have; i.e. you'll need five of them and they'll need to be NEMA-17's for the stock MPCNC. I'm sure Ryan (vicious1) sends a lot of parts bundles (everything but the conduit and plastics) to the UK but I don't know what the shipping rates are.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, Ocean. If I come across as a bit abrupt or say something truly weird, please forgive me and understand I'm just an old retired engineer, who lives alone, and sometimes forgets that he's supposed to be "house-broken"...

-- David

 

[Ocean]

I'd say go for it, Ocean. As I said, the MPCNC is a fun and exciting build... if you enjoy building stuff. And it is exceptionally gratifying to see it move for the first time... it's quite a rush!

As far as the quality of those 3d printers... I'm sure they're fine. And there's nothing special about the MPCNC printed parts except for the number of them and the length of time it takes a typical part to print (3-4 hours for the larger parts). But these parts must be dimensionally accurate... they need to fit together precisely and with minimal fuss/cleanup. The first thing you should check is the availability of the conduit/tubing you intend to use... probably 25 mm OD since you are in the UK. If you can get the 25 mm conduit/tubing, then print an IE corner block (http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:790533) and check the fit against a piece of the tubing. If you intend to use more than one 3d printer, you'll want to do this check for each of them.

I guess I'm hearing you say you'll source all your own parts though I'm still puzzled by your mention of the three stepper motors you have; i.e. you'll need five of them and they'll need to be NEMA-17's for the stock MPCNC. I'm sure Ryan (vicious1) sends a lot of parts bundles (everything but the conduit and plastics) to the UK but I don't know what the shipping rates are.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, Ocean. If I come across as a bit abrupt or say something truly weird, please forgive me and understand I'm just an old retired engineer, who lives alone, and sometimes forgets that he's supposed to be "house-broken"...

-- David

Yes, I intend to buy 2 more steppers and use the 3 I have lying around, purely as I would like to keep costs as low as possible. The killer when ordering from the US usually isn't the shipping but the import duties you have to pay when it arrives. It can easily be $50 for a $200 order.

I'm sure this will be the first of many questions, but what is the preferred filament for 3d printed parts? The Ultimaker has a printed bed I believe so I should be able to print anything.

Don't worry you didn't come across at all as giving me a hard time

 

[dkj4linux]

Yes, I intend to buy 2 more steppers and use the 3 I have lying around, purely as I would like to keep costs as low as possible. The killer when ordering from the US usually isn't the shipping but the import duties you have to pay when it arrives. It can easily be $50 for a $200 order.

I'm sure this will be the first of many questions, but what is the preferred filament for 3d printed parts? The Ultimaker has a printed bed I believe so I should be able to print anything.

Don't worry you didn't come across at all as giving me a hard time

Just an opinion: 5 steppers are actually quite reasonable cost on Ebay nowadays, especially in light of the total cost of the machine. I realize this is a US "deal" (maybe there's a similar UK "deal"?) but these are the ones I recently purchased for the next machine I've got to build (http://www.ebay.com/itm/231427537485). One slight advantage to having matched motors is that you'll be able to set the motor driver's output voltages/currents without having to be so mindful of differing specs, one motor to another.

The key to building MPCNC is being able to 3d print parts that are dimensionally accurate and well-fitted to the hardware and each other. PLA filament is generally considered more stable and subject to less shrinkage and warping than other filaments so is the filament of choice for MPCNC. For PLA, I generally set the extruder temp to 195C and the heated printbed to 55C for all layers but the first, which are set to 200C and 60C, respectively. I also use hairspray on the glass to help with adhesion. Refer to the chart at http://www.vicious1.com/blog/parts/ for the recommended infill settings for each MPCNC part... most are between 50% and 70% and I usually specify 3 perimeters and 3 top/bottom solid layers. You will use a lot of filament -- 1-1/2 spools (1 kg) for a complete MPCNC. Since it appears the 3d printers you have access to are in a "controlled environment" I'd use whatever PLA filament brands are already in use... there are a zillion brands to choose from nowadays and it can be quite a chore finding a cheaper one that won't drive you crazy while trying to work with it. -- David

 

[Ocean]

Just an opinion: 5 steppers are actually quite reasonable cost on Ebay nowadays, especially in light of the total cost of the machine. I realize this is a US "deal" (maybe there's a similar UK "deal"?) but these are the ones I recently purchased for the next machine I've got to build (http://www.ebay.com/itm/231427537485). One slight advantage to having matched motors is that you'll be able to set the motor driver's output voltages/currents without having to be so mindful of differing specs, one motor to another.

The key to building MPCNC is being able to 3d print parts that are dimensionally accurate and well-fitted to the hardware and each other. PLA filament is generally considered more stable and subject to less shrinkage and warping than other filaments so is the filament of choice for MPCNC. For PLA, I generally set the extruder temp to 195C and the heated printbed to 55C for all layers but the first, which are set to 200C and 60C, respectively. I also use hairspray on the glass to help with adhesion. Refer to the chart at http://www.vicious1.com/blog/parts/ for the recommended infill settings for each MPCNC part... most are between 50% and 70% and I usually specify 3 perimeters and 3 top/bottom solid layers. You will use a lot of filament -- 1-1/2 spools (1 kg) for a complete MPCNC. Since it appears the 3d printers you have access to are in a "controlled environment" I'd use whatever PLA filament brands are already in use... there are a zillion brands to choose from nowadays and it can be quite a chore finding a cheaper one that won't drive you crazy while trying to work with it. -- David

I have been recommended to buy a roll of 'Verbatim' filament for use with this particular printer, its around $8 more expensive than the dirt cheap stuff but I am sure this is a price worth paying especially as you say the key to the MPCNC is in the 3d printed parts.

Indeed I have a look and there are some combo deals for 5 steppers, and it is only $30 more than buy 2 seperately so I think I will buy this to save the hassle of separately motor tuning later as you mentioned.

I also gave a look at vicious' deals, and unfortunately the shipping is too expensive to be economical, ($72). As well as the risk of import duties. Oh well, I'm sure I can just buy it all separately.

Thank you again

Ocean

 

[jhitesma]

My steppers are scheduled for delivery Tuesday. No update on the shipping status of my ramps package yet but that's not shocking since it's coming from China, don't really expect an update until it hits our shores.

Haven't made any headway on printing the last few bits due to my 3D printer giving me headaches all week Think they're finally sorted though so hopefully progress will continue tonight.

Just need to find a spring for the Z backlash, and order some GT2 belt and pulleys.

dkj4linux - can you confirm that 5m of GT2 belt is sufficient for the size you've been building?

 

[dkj4linux]

My steppers are scheduled for delivery Tuesday. No update on the shipping status of my ramps package yet but that's not shocking since it's coming from China, don't really expect an update until it hits our shores.

Haven't made any headway on printing the last few bits due to my 3D printer giving me headaches all week Think they're finally sorted though so hopefully progress will continue tonight.

Just need to find a spring for the Z backlash, and order some GT2 belt and pulleys.

dkj4linux - can you confirm that 5m of GT2 belt is sufficient for the size you've been building?

My last machine was 48" x 36" footprint, 37" x 25" working. That's about 168" of belt... or 4.3m. You should be good with 5m of belt I would think... if you build your machine to the same dimensions.

I got my filament packages from both MakerGeeks and MachineableWax yesterday. Orange (Yay!) and Clear (Boo?) were the filament colors in the grab bag...

Also cleared my work surface and intend to start another MPCNC this weekend... 24" x 24" footprint for Dewalt router and $100 diode laser. Have almost all parts printed already in E-Sun black... maybe the MG orange to contrast. Halloween theme! -- David

 

[jhitesma]

My last machine was 48" x 36" footprint, 37" x 25" working. That's about 168" of belt... or 4.3m. You should be good with 5m of belt I would think... if you build your machine to the same dimensions.

Yeah, I'm going 48"x36". My math suggested 5m would be enough but figured I'd double check!

I got my filament packages from both MakerGeeks and MachineableWax yesterday. Orange (Yay!) and Clear (Boo?) were the filament colors in the grab bag...

I've actually been thinking about picking up some clear or natural. Want to try the deal with rigging up a colored sharpie as it feeds in so I can color it myself

Also cleared my work surface and intend to start another MPCNC this weekend... 24" x 24" footprint for Dewalt router and $100 diode laser. Have almost all parts printed already in E-Sun black... maybe the MG orange to contrast. Halloween theme! -- David

Spooky!

 

[DavidW]

Okay. I must be missing something and don't really understand why you feel you need to switch back and forth. SketchUp *is* a Windows application after all and since you have Windows installed on your computer you could just give in and use it that way. It can be very frustrating getting wine, SU, and all plugins working on the Linux side but it certainly isn't impossible. Your options:

1) Get the Windows version of "pstoedit" and stay on the Windows side to do everything.

2) Get wine, SU, and all plugins working (set any/all appropriate switches) on the Linux side and work there.

In your case, (1) would be easiest and most straight-forward. For me, I don't have Windows and (2) works very nicely as described in my previous post on a very modest "rooted" Acer Chromebook. -- David

I only needed win7 to import the dxf file into sketchup. I cannot find FreeDXF v0.57 download, I have seen forum talk about it but no place to download. I think that some of my issues come from the fact that that I'm using a Dell Latitudethat has an Intel graphics chip which is problematic in some things. From winetricks when sketchup 8 starts it complains about not having opengl drivers the latest wine development has overcome that for me. I think that everything will work ok if I can find FreeDXF v0.57. My win7 partition is quite out of date as I rarely use it.

 

[dkj4linux]

I only needed win7 to import the dxf file into sketchup. I cannot find FreeDXF v0.57 download, I have seen forum talk about it but no place to download. I think that some of my issues come from the fact that that I'm using a Dell Latitudethat has an Intel graphics chip which is problematic in some things. From winetricks when sketchup 8 starts it complains about not having opengl drivers the latest wine development has overcome that for me. I think that everything will work ok if I can find FreeDXF v0.57. My win7 partition is quite out of date as I rarely use it.

I'm sorry, David. As you can probably tell, I am old school and don't "upgrade"/keep up to date if I have tools that are working for me. I still use SU8 and plugins (including SketchUCAM and FreeDXF v0.57) from a good while ago... and they run with not-the-latest-version of Wine on my modest Chromebook computer running Ubuntu 14.04. I don't know where FreeDXF has gone, or... why DXF import capability isn't in SU2016, or...

I really don't think your Dell Latitude and its graphics chip is/was at fault. I used Dell laptops for years, running Linux Mint and the same SU8 and plugins as now, in wine, without issue. I saw "opengl" issues a couple of time over the years, googled the *exact* error message, and got past the issue without ever having to upgrade to the latest and greatest version of anything. IIRC that's just a simple registry edit and having a proper opengl.dll installed in wine.

If there's a later FreeDXF, give it a try... hopefully you can get the Linux side running. If not, you could just give in and run all the SU stuff on the Windows side. Or you can keep bouncing back and forth. You have workarounds. And as we've probably veered a bit off-topic, I hope you'll understand I've gone down this path about as far as I am able, or care, to go. Good luck.
-- David

 

[jhitesma]

Well, after 5 tries I FINALLY got the last roller motor mount printed in the color I wanted. Hopefully the printer will play nice now as I finish printing the last 6 foot parts tomorrow!

I still want to reprint the one Roller_F in purple but am going to finish the parts I don't have first Also need to reprint the Z motor mount (but am waiting until I get my steppers to see if I need the taller mount or the original mount.) But the end of printing is in sight.

Tomorrow I'm hoping to build a table for this thing and if time allows going to try a test assembly of everything.

David - since I don't have all the feet printed yet I'm not sure how much extra room I need to leave on the table. I'm kind of thinking about doing 48"x48" so I can have some "benchtop" space in front or behind the 36" side. But want to confirm that doing a 36"x38" I'll be able to fit it on a table of that size before I start cutting wood...and don't really want to wait until the feet all finish printing before I start building

 

[SystemsGuy]

What a small world! I was wondering what the CNC was going to do - can't wait to see how the needle works out.

Well, after 5 tries I FINALLY got the last roller motor mount printed in the color I wanted. Hopefully the printer will play nice now as I finish printing the last 6 foot parts tomorrow!

I still want to reprint the one Roller_F in purple but am going to finish the parts I don't have first Also need to reprint the Z motor mount (but am waiting until I get my steppers to see if I need the taller mount or the original mount.) But the end of printing is in sight.

Tomorrow I'm hoping to build a table for this thing and if time allows going to try a test assembly of everything.

David - since I don't have all the feet printed yet I'm not sure how much extra room I need to leave on the table. I'm kind of thinking about doing 48"x48" so I can have some "benchtop" space in front or behind the 36" side. But want to confirm that doing a 36"x38" I'll be able to fit it on a table of that size before I start cutting wood...and don't really want to wait until the feet all finish printing before I start building

 

[dkj4linux]

Tomorrow I'm hoping to build a table for this thing and if time allows going to try a test assembly of everything.

David - since I don't have all the feet printed yet I'm not sure how much extra room I need to leave on the table. I'm kind of thinking about doing 48"x48" so I can have some "benchtop" space in front or behind the 36" side. But want to confirm that doing a 36"x38" I'll be able to fit it on a table of that size before I start cutting wood...and don't really want to wait until the feet all finish printing before I start building

I've built three MPCNC's with at least one 48" dimension (and feet) and all were done on a 4'x4' piece of MDF for a work surface

-- David

 

[jhitesma]

Well, I got the tops of the feet printed. Started printing the bottom feet...and about 1/4" up on the first one the printer started jumping on the Y axis and the Z stopped responding entirely

Looks like my z stepper driver may have fried. Pretty sure I'm going to have to start running the AC if I want to keep printing.

New stepper drivers on order.

My wife got me the v slot grantry for the Y upgrade on my printer for my birthday...but only the grantry none of the other parts needed for the upgrade. So those parts are on order as well.

Sure hope my dinner goes better than the rest of this week/day has been

 

[dkj4linux]

Well, I got the tops of the feet printed. Started printing the bottom feet...and about 1/4" up on the first one the printer started jumping on the Y axis and the Z stopped responding entirely

Looks like my z stepper driver may have fried. Pretty sure I'm going to have to start running the AC if I want to keep printing.

New stepper drivers on order.

My wife got me the v slot grantry for the Y upgrade on my printer for my birthday...but only the grantry none of the other parts needed for the upgrade. So those parts are on order as well.

Sure hope my dinner goes better than the rest of this week/day has been

Did you put that fan on the RAMPS board? You need to...

Sorry for all the troubles. It'll get better... I promise!

 

[jhitesma]

I did put the fan on. And yesterday I even wired it up

Soon as the temp got over 85 in the room with the printer today though trouble started.

At least it gives me an excuse to update the printer to DRV8825's. Going to fire it up again here in a bit and see if the stepper drivers were just over heated or actually toast.

We gave in and turned on the AC for a bit so it should be nice and cool here soon. Just hate to have to run that in March already.

And the rather lame birthday gave me an excuse to spend some money on myself so at least the last of the bits for the CNC and some upgrades for the printer are on their way. Really should have gotten myself a new RX for one of my multis but...I've got enough bare boards and components to solder a few more of those up myself if I'd stop being so lazy and obsessed with 3D printing/CNC

 

[Amcknight31]

This. Is. Insane! That was soooooo cool! How did you mount the needle? Also, what was the microcomtroller you used?

 

[dkj4linux]

This. Is. Insane! That was soooooo cool! How did you mount the needle? Also, what was the microcomtroller you used?

Welcome, Amcknight31. I'm assuming you are talking of the foam cutter?

Check out post #26 in this thread for fabrication of the music-wire needle and mounting on the bearing. A 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 turn loop is formed in the needle that fits snugly around the lightly grooved outer race of a small bearing mounted eccentrically on the face of the flywheel. The flywheel is balanced and mounted on the shaft of a brushless motor and powered with an ESC and servo tester, for speed control. It can be powered from the CNC or a separate power brick... it needs less than 2 amps at 12 volts.

-- David

 

[jhitesma]

Getting closer. Got 2 of the base feet printed out last night, 2 more to go.

And these guys arrived today:


These are some beasts! Can't wait for the RAMPS to get here so I can start wiring them up. It passed through LA yesterday but hasn't updated since...should still be here soon. GT2 belt and pulleys are scheduled for Thursday...so looking good for having this together this weekend!

Glad I didn't reprint the Z motor mount yet too, these do indeed seem to have long shafts so I'm going to have to use the other Z mount anyway. So that's one more thing I'll have to print.