Fixed-Wing Racing (NOT a Wing)

[Anomaly]

Hello,
I am getting back into flying fixed-wing FPV and really would like to do some racing! Is anyone still doing this? I think it has so much more potential than quads, it just needs to move past the cheap “toy” stage. I think part of the problem is that everyone uses flying wings, which from an aircraft design point of view is inferior to designs with vertical control surfaces and dedicated elevators.

I could imagine watching 6x 8-10ft wing span turbine jets racing on a course. What do you think? Am I alone on this?

here are a couple I am working on now.
The foam build will have a canard for pitch control.

 

[mrjdstewart]

thing is wings are cheap, easy to build, and pretty darn tough if you do it right. they are also very fast. to me it don't matter though, i will fly the wings off anything low and fast with fpv, i'm easy that way.

biggest issue i have is finding someone else who wants to "race" and is of equal skills.

laters,

me

 

[Anomaly]

“Cheap, easy to build”
That’s my point for building a competitive race scene. Those are great qualities for beginners, but not for high performance racing.
there is also nothing inherent about a wing that makes it fast, and they lack the control for high precision, low and fast flying.
Quads have amazing control which allows them to do all sorts of crazy maneuvers, increasing entertainment value, wings lack that versus traditional airplanes.

But yeah your right, getting enough similarly skilled pilots is the first hurdle.

“I will fly the wings off anything” my kinda guy! Haha

 

[mrjdstewart]

“Cheap, easy to build”
That’s my point for building a competitive race scene. Those are great qualities for beginners, but not for high performance racing.

i don't know. i think cheap and easy are the key to going really fast, really low. you don't care if you crash.

there is also nothing inherent about a wing that makes it fast, and they lack the control for high precision, low and fast flying.

please don't tell my FPV wings that, they seem to think they are pretty slick.

Quads have amazing control which allows them to do all sorts of crazy maneuvers, increasing entertainment value, wings lack that versus traditional airplanes.

i don't know about you but when i am racing fast and low, i don't need any more control than a set of elevons will give. i am not flying 3D. i have raced twins w/ diff thrust, pushers with rudders, and just plain yank and bank control. not bashing on your design or thoughts, i just like my wings best.

But yeah your right, getting enough similarly skilled pilots is the first hurdle.

i have 1 guy at my field that is brave enough to race FPV, the others that i have gotten into FPV are maybe a little old and slow for the challenge. kinda of a younger mans sport if you will. they love to watch me fly with their goggles on but when it comes time to do it themselves...crickets.

“I will fly the wings off anything” my kinda guy! Haha

i used to race motorcycles until injuries ended that fun. FPV flying is as close as i can get now to screaming across dez at full speed, plus i have the added bonus of not being "on" the aircraft if and when i do crash.

i am currently working on a new design for my newest FPV race wing. it will be smaller than and FT Arrow and have a symmetrical airfoil. it will have CF internal spars and will be fiberglassed for additional strength. a sunnysky 2207 on 4S will make it faster than it needs to be.

laters,

me

 

[Anomaly]

i don't know. i think cheap and easy are the key to going really fast, really low. you don't care if you crash.


i don't know about you but when i am racing fast and low, i don't need any more control than a set of elevons will give. i am not flying 3D. i have raced twins w/ diff thrust, pushers with rudders, and just plain yank and bank control. not bashing on your design or thoughts, i just like my wings best.

for that freestyle open course kinda flying, sure you want cheap and easy, for those inevitable crashes. But on a predefined track, you shouldn’t be worried about crashing but focused on what’s the fastest line, so with a well dialed in aircraft that has ample control and stability(active or passive) you can do this. Similar to any motor sport as I’m sure you are aware of.

for instance, I haven’t seen any wing races on YouTube where the wings aren’t bouncing around in altitude and all over the place, as a spectator it is hard to watch, but if you can get a group of aircraft consistently flying within a couple feet of each other, it would be a lot more entertaining.

no feelings hurt here, I enjoy the discussion rather you agree or disagree!

Are you fiberglassing over a foam core or hollow?
I am all for a fiberglass build! but doesn’t it go against your easy and cheap for crashing philosophy?

 

[mrjdstewart]

ya, kinda. been thinking and strategizing all day. i think i have come up with the mother of all cheap, easy, racing FPV wing builds. it won't have CF and i probably won't fiberglass, at least at first. gotta see how tough the stock version is first. should also be stupid light and able to swing a 6" prop if i choose.

i also appreciate the debate and all for getting lot's of people together to fly really fast, low, and under the clock. i love the idea.

i am however going to argue with "active or passive" though. i have NO interest in having something else fly my plane for me. if i set my wing up properly it should not be all over the place, if it is that is me, not the airplane that needs to improve. i am not a fan of gyros or SAFE, or any of that nonsense especially when it is supposed to be a heads to heads race. if your a newbie and still a little nervous, they are perfect, but i have close to 100 planes that span the entire spectrum and NONE of them have a stabilizer, gyro, or SAFE.

i would also say that if people are just "spectating" by watching the race, they are missing out. you need spare goggles and video screens that can actually show them what the pilots are seeing, thats were you hook the fish.

i will get some pics once i get a little further along with the build may even be done today if i find some motivation...

laters,

me

 

[Anomaly]

Do you know how modern fighter jets are flown? They are inherently unstable, which allows them to be stupidly maneuverable, but are only controllable due to a flight controller. Stabilization can be an aide to elevate your game, not cheat it.
And I’m quite certain if you ask a fighter pilot, who flies that plane, the computer or them, they will laugh at you…. I know because I work with them on a daily.

I think you are actually missing the point to unmanned racing at scale, the coolness to the spectator is not the first person view, it is watching 6 of these things at 10ft wingspan racing side by side pulling crazy Gs. Can’t do that with a pilot in the cockpit due to liability and safety(ask Red Bull air race). Can’t put goggles on a crowd of people. And watching a big screen of the FPV feed helps, but if that is all live racing has to offer, people can do that from their couch.

the wow factor of FPV is great for the hobby level, but is not going to be what wins the masses over when racing at scale. If it is all that is needed than quads are the better platform due to the ridiculous maneuverability and fixed wing has no hope.

 

[JetCrafts]

that looks awsome make a foam one

 

[mrjdstewart]

Do you know how modern fighter jets are flown? They are inherently unstable, which allows them to be stupidly maneuverable, but are only controllable due to a flight controller. Stabilization can be an aide to elevate your game, not cheat it.
And I’m quite certain if you ask a fighter pilot, who flies that plane, the computer or them, they will laugh at you…. I know because I work with them on a daily.

well, of the 2 of us, i know one of us has been to the real "Top Gun" multiple times and is a retired, disabled vet who worked on F/A-18's. so, ya i am well aware of what makes a fighter jet fly.

I think you are actually missing the point to unmanned racing at scale, the coolness to the spectator is not the first person view, it is watching 6 of these things at 10ft wingspan racing side by side pulling crazy Gs. Can’t do that with a pilot in the cockpit due to liability and safety(ask Red Bull air race).

once again, all for it but i think you have to be realistic. the odds of finding 6 guys with the money, the time, and the skills to do this will not be easy. also finding a place to do it, at that size will not be easy. making sure the event is safe, also not easy especially when talking about those size and speeds. it would take 1 "oh sh--!" and you would never be racing again. i can fly my wing at full speed into anything shy of a person and do very little if any damage.

Can’t put goggles on a crowd of people. And watching a big screen of the FPV feed helps, but if that is all live racing has to offer, people can do that from their couch.

no you cant put goggles on everyone but that is how you will hook them. we always have about 3 spare sets at any given time plus an LCD screen. is it perfect no, but does it give the participant the feel for what it is like, sure does and that is the key. once they wear the goggles and assuming they don't fall over or puke, they are usually sold. does that mean they are gonna become "racers?" nope, but they usually start flying FPV which is the first step.

the wow factor of FPV is great for the hobby level, but is not going to be what wins the masses over when racing at scale. If it is all that is needed than quads are the better platform due to the ridiculous maneuverability and fixed wing has no hope.

i think anytime you can put a person "into" the seat you are going to get the "wow" factor and win. i don't think it really matters if quad, wing, or plane assuming they can handle the motion. a lot of people can't so adding more crazy maneuvers like a quad will only make it worse.

again, please don't take this as me bashing your idea. it would be super cool and i would gladly volunteer to pilot but until you have 6 x 10ft super fast airplanes and a location you can actually "race" them i will keep racing with my wing.

laters,

me

 

[PsyBorg]

Hello,
I am getting back into flying fixed-wing FPV and really would like to do some racing! Is anyone still doing this? I think it has so much more potential than quads, it just needs to move past the cheap “toy” stage. I think part of the problem is that everyone uses flying wings, which from an aircraft design point of view is inferior to designs with vertical control surfaces and dedicated elevators.

I could imagine watching 6x 8-10ft wing span turbine jets racing on a course. What do you think? Am I alone on this?

here are a couple I am working on now.
The foam build will have a canard for pitch control.
View attachment 203614

The thing about racing fixed wing vs multirotor is that when a drone has an issue it falls out of the sky in pretty short distances. If a pilot knows they are going to have a problem its super easy to stop it on a dime and regain control or to dis arm and drop it. Fixed wing however does not have that ability to fall back on and the glide alone after loss of control is a HUUUUUUGE safety thing that organized racing stays away from. Then when you factor in the time and cost of a repair from a single crash multirotors win hands down as at max you would need an hour and a half for a full rebuild vs hours to days for a fixed wing if it is even repairable after a major crash.

Planes are super cool to watch as they are usually larger and more visible to spectators as well as more adept at cooler shapes and livery. But bottom line as always its a cost / safety over cool / fun.

 

[Anomaly]

The thing about racing fixed wing vs multirotor is that when a drone has an issue it falls out of the sky in pretty short distances. If a pilot knows they are going to have a problem its super easy to stop it on a dime and regain control or to dis arm and drop it. Fixed wing however does not have that ability to fall back on and the glide alone after loss of control is a HUUUUUUGE safety thing that organized racing stays away from. Then when you factor in the time and cost of a repair from a single crash multirotors win hands down as at max you would need an hour and a half for a full rebuild vs hours to days for a fixed wing if it is even repairable after a major crash.

Planes are super cool to watch as they are usually larger and more visible to spectators as well as more adept at cooler shapes and livery. But bottom line as always its a cost / safety over cool / fun.

Red Bull Air Racing, Reno Air Race, Airshows, Giant RC Gas Turbine air shows all have the same safety concerns, but yet these events have occurred all over the world for over a century. Safety is not something that will prevent it from happening, only something to consider when setting up an event.

 

[Anomaly]

that looks awsome make a foam one

Thanks! The foam board version is about as close as I can get to a foam version.
I will be 3D printing a prototype and the do a CF/fiberglass version.

 

[PsyBorg]

Red Bull Air Racing, Reno Air Race, Airshows, Giant RC Gas Turbine air shows all have the same safety concerns, but yet these events have occurred all over the world for over a century. Safety is not something that will prevent it from happening, only something to consider when setting up an event.

Yes but those are organized events with pro level or highly qualified pilots not just a buncha weekenders hangin out at the field. HUGE disconnect with skill levels and organization. The pilots allowed in those level races have practiced and certified to fly at that level. We however have not. I dont care how skilled you think you are unless you are one of those pilots actually TRAINING every day and not just out having fun the risk is exponentially higher for bad things to happen. Not to mention those guys aint racing with over powered foamies...

 

[L Edge]

“Cheap, easy to build”
That’s my point for building a competitive race scene. Those are great qualities for beginners, but not for high performance racing.
there is also nothing inherent about a wing that makes it fast, and they lack the control for high precision, low and fast flying.
Quads have amazing control which allows them to do all sorts of crazy maneuvers, increasing entertainment value, wings lack that versus traditional airplanes.

But yeah your right, getting enough similarly skilled pilots is the first hurdle.

“I will fly the wings off anything” my kinda guy! Haha

Does this satisfy you?

In the AMA group, there is a segment that races pylon around the country as well as having the National champ that competes World Wide. In general, foam will usually not exceed 100mph(35-50 G's in turns) and last very long.
Many racers get into the 135mph where the cream of the crop move up into the 200mph class. Just like Nascar, you move up if you got it in skills.

 

[Anomaly]

Does this satisfy you?

YES!!!!(that is some crazy line of sight flying!
Now add FPV so you can make the courses a bit more intricate. And add a few more aircraft in the air.

 

[JasonK]

there are actually fixed wing racing groups. IE -> https://fpvwra.net/spec-wing-courses-2/

I could made a track that a quad person has [nearly] zero chance of completing but a wing would be great at (just make the race take 5+ minutes - quads have endurance issues). also wings are easier to see for spectators LOS.

 

[Anomaly]

Is that group still active and aren’t they focused on wings? And as you can see they aren’t using wings to hit those speeds and maneuvers.

I predict endurance will still be an issue fo even fixed-wings, sustaining 100mph speeds are going to drain just about any battery an airplane can carry.
But like you said LOS for spectators is a big differentiator, IMO

 

[JasonK]

Is that group still active and aren’t they focused on wings? And as you can see they aren’t using wings to hit those speeds and maneuvers.

I predict endurance will still be an issue fo even fixed-wings, sustaining 100mph speeds are going to drain just about any battery an airplane can carry.
But like you said LOS for spectators is a big differentiator, IMO

I talked [one of] to the original founder at FF and there was some things that apparently happened that are rather unfortunate, but they do seem to still be active and things are likely to be improving after the next leadership voting round.

 

[PsyBorg]

Yo

Red Bull Air Racing, Reno Air Race, Airshows, Giant RC Gas Turbine air shows all have the same safety concerns, but yet these events have occurred all over the world for over a century. Safety is not something that will prevent it from happening, only something to consider when setting up an event.

You do realize you are comparing full scale planes with professional pilots to every day knuckleheads flying model aircraft right?

 

[Anomaly]

Yo


You do realize you are comparing full scale planes with professional pilots to every day knuckleheads flying model aircraft right?

I also mentioned giant RC airshows, those guys are just “knuckleheads” with big wallets flying model aircraft.
I never said you should take your average everyday foamie pilot and put them behind a 1:5 scale giant scale turbine rc airplane in front of hundreds of people. I didn’t realize I needed to paint out every step, I figured some could be assumed.

But what I said is your concern about safety making this a non starter is invalid because there are events with much more risk, going on all over the world. And they didn’t start out as “professionals”. Being a professional is a learned behavior, no reason why you can’t train people to be professional FPV 1:5 scale pilots.

Maybe this is the wrong audience to try and get something like this started because apparently the community is full of a bunch of “knuckleheads” flying model aircraft.

So because people today are flying model aircraft, a giant rc air race can’t exist in the future? Because that is what you are saying, and doesn’t make any sense.