FPV Aerobatics with a large scale gasser, need headtracking advice, (videos)

[Kawamike]

Hey Guys, so I've been flyin fpv with headtracking in many things for years now , (haven't done helis yet, but that's next) and I haven't seen many (if any) people doing aerobatics, first did it with a 48" foam yak,

I setup a little Redbull air race course, I'm at a field by myself, then I moved to a large gasser as I wanted more stability to do precision aerobatics, but of course the video quality is crap, until I saw the new digital DJI goggles , they claim very low delay with HD video, have you guys ever tried them ??? I would love some input, I've been pretty much the only one a know doing this,, the videos I've seen look great, the emersion could be very good, but I have another question, the headtracking that I have been using is off the trinity board in the fatshark goggles, if I get these DJI's , I gotta find new headtracking hardware, So what are other ones are you guys using ???
What works good??? The combo I've been using has not let me down, here is some early video of the 78" gasser

there is some other flyin videos on my channel to give you a idea if what I'm after,,,,

My first problem was how to do aerobatics ! couldn't anyone on the web doing it , it was even hard to find good video of full scale guys teaching people, I didn't know where to look to do the maneuver's , hell,, I went for a ride in an extra so I could get some advice, that helpded, but I see you guys are doing some really cool stuff , finally found some like minded people, thanks for your time , look forward to all your advice and experience

 

[PsyBorg]

FPV is a whole different animal then real life looking around. The main factor is the latency (AKA lag) between the time the video is taken to the time your brain can process it. systems are getting better but right now even with the improvements DJI is way too slow for even simple FPV racings and freestyle (which is on par with what you want to do)

Analog is the way to go still for any fpv that requires fast reaction times. Im going to go out on a limb and say you have Fat Shark gear with fancy add on modules you bought after watching either Bardwell videos / Rotor Riot/ or Mr Steele since you say you have crappy video.

Im not going to get into gear debates but there are better systems. Beyond that there are ways to clear up "crappy" video most people never learn by cookie cuttering pros gear recommendations. Wire management has a LOT to do with bad video and is usually a big factor in resolving most issues I have helped people with. Start by braiding your video cameras positive, negative, and video wires. This creates a way to sink outside signal injection from things like motor noise. Same thing goes for the wire from any osd unit (in case of flight controller use) back to the VTX.

The next big issue is cable routing and how wires cross or run parallel to other wires. Isolate all fpv wires from any power wires or high current areas of your electronics like esc's if these wires have to cross do so as close to 90 degrees as possible to avoid signal injection. NEVER run them parallel with power wires.

Antennas are the next biggest thing. They are tuned for the center of the entire band so some channels closer to that will be cleaner and have better signal. Make sure you have mated pairs of antennas (same brand and style) again choice of maker is another on going debate. personally I find the AXii line of antennas to be a great fit between price and performance and I have tried 3 dollar antennas to 50 dollar and up antennas on my quads. I even use stock dipoles in certain places as they give better performance where I fly at times.

Also try out different channels where you fly. Many reasons are that some frequencies from vtx can radiate quite low and not penetrate or others can be too high bounce all over the place even on the same power settings. Find the channel that best suits the area not just always run the same channel.

Next is the actual cameras you use. Again I tired many and found the runcam microswift2's to be the best cost / performance wise. They also have the best firmware for control. Sadly they are being phased out. I did recently upgrade to a newer runcam that had a 1/2 seonsor not a 1/3 sensor and the jump in clarity is amazing.

In my 6 years of fpv I have dialed in what works well and now have video on par with hd just not as high resolution that is rock solid and clear. I dont have too many issues not being able to see "Scraggle". I have None of the fading and signal degradation I see in every Fat shark/ external module video I have seen from the pros. Personally I couldnt fly with video that bad in my goggles.

Anyways start at the basics and work forward and you can clean up your video nicely. Try one of the newer cameras with the 1/2 sensors. Avoid any that limit you to Presets as these camera guys STILL have no clue and set the cameras up for static indoor lighting conditions. Find one that has firmware allowing you to change things like the light to dark transition and dark to light transition. then when you tune the camera settings do NOT tune it like you set your video up for computer games with super high contrast and colors and sharpness. Match it to what your eyeballs see when not in the goggles. Cut all that stuff wayyy back from stock settings and you'll be amazed at how clear it all can be.

 

[LitterBug]

A quick word of advice for your videos, Do not advertise in the description that you were flying FPV "alone at the field". You should have a spotter flying FPV. (as per FAA and AMA regulations and guidelines) The next thing I noticed is that you seem to have a very nose down attitude on your camera. This obstructs a large portion of the field of reference. You may need to move the camera up or forward, but staring at a dash that does not have usable gauges really takes away from the usable visual reference. The cockpit videos I have watched of full scale aerobatics, the pilots have aerobatic sights on the wingtips that they use, and they look up and around A LOT. You probably need to have 180 of pan, and the ability for a lot more tilt up for looking up and around.
From a video gear standpoint, Psyborg is spot on with his recommendation to stick with analog cameras, camera settings, and quality antennas. I recommend going with VAS branded antennas. (Video Aerial Systems). They are reasonably priced AND are a cut above the rest as far as quality, gain, axial ratio, durability, etc. I have been using the Minion pro on my wings and ground station recently and could not believe how much better they have been. Also, invest in a ground station that has your antennas removed from your headset. When you look around for the head tracking, you may be moving the antennas in a direction that is not optimal for reception. A ground station lets you get the antenna(s) higher up in the air with fewer obstructions. When I'm flying with my ground station and others at the field are just using their headsets, they often wonder how I can fly with such bad video. In reality, the video I see from the ground station is crystal clear. The goggles you use and the field of view they have can make a huge difference. The bigger the view the better. I see a TON of camera shake in the video with the yellow plane. Make sure you have NO slop in your pan/tilt mechanism. Use digital servos as they are stronger and have better position holding ability.

This is by far not my best video quality, gear, flying, etc... but it is a reference point of how just seeing a small portion of the nose (the yellow tape) frees up your vision while still providing a reference of the vehicle to the ground. (was a cheap 25mw AIO camera on the plane)

Cheers!
LitterBug

EDIT: Most of the wing flying I have done has been leisurely flying. I am working on a OMPHobby Challenger 49" to fly FPV. At some point I may add pan to it. Botched the LOS maiden and am waiting on a replacement fuselage. Plan is to mount the camera just above the CG.

 

[PsyBorg]

How come people (not picking on you directly LB this just randomly popped in my head) STILL keep bringing up the AMA when referencing laws and such. They are NOT a factor as they have yet to be reaccepted as a CBO by the F.A.A. and their guidelines are moot as some are not in line with what the F.A.A. currently mandates. (if you even abide by them since they are dictated by 1940's and 50s thinking based on electronics gear of the time capabilities) Im all for safe flying but having rules and laws based on out dated reasoning specially when things are being monetized based on it irks the bajeebus outta me.

 

[LitterBug]

How come people (not picking on you directly LB this just randomly popped in my head) STILL keep bringing up the AMA when referencing laws and such. They are NOT a factor as they have yet to be reaccepted as a CBO by the F.A.A. and their guidelines are moot as some are not in line with what the F.A.A. currently mandates. (if you even abide by them since they are dictated by 1940's and 50s thinking based on electronics gear of the time capabilities) Im all for safe flying but having rules and laws based on out dated reasoning specially when things are being monetized based on it irks the bajeebus outta me.

My point is just that "BOTH" the AMA and FAA "REQUIRE" a spotter when flying FPV. So if you post a video flying at a field stating "FPV and Alone", then you are violating both FAA and AMA FPV requirements. Advertising that you do that while flying at an AMA field may not be such a good idea. That is all I am saying.....

 

[PsyBorg]

I didnt think he was at an AMA field after watching the video. He had broke several AMA rules technically. Flying behind the flight line, flying over roads, flying over the pit area, more then 400 feet from control position.. which was probably one of the reasons my question popped into my head.

 

[LitterBug]

I didnt think he was at an AMA field after watching the video. He had broke several AMA rules technically. Flying behind the flight line, flying over roads, flying over the pit area, more then 400 feet from control position.. which was probably one of the reasons my question popped into my head.

Yeah, I wasn't going to go into all that. I don't post all my videos.... Just sayin'

 

[Kawamike]

thanks for response PsyBorg, love to see one of your videos with the adjustments you've made ! could you post it please, good advice , I have been very reluctant to go to digital as well because of all the talk of delay, it's just that I've seen some video of guys overlaying analog and digital (having both on the quad at the same time) and the frames were unnoticeably different, flying thru trees, but the quality was huge,,, love to see what you've done,,, there have been talk of dropping latency at high speeds (100 mph ) and structures , but my application is wide open , slower and not far away, yes I an aware of the wing sights for aerobatics and I have them on my planes as well with reprogramed servos getting 180, those videos were first gen, and good point LB , always wondered about the spotter rule with no one around, it's a little vague, I have read the AMA rules on that and it talks of losing signal with people around, hence I have made it clear that when I am by myself , not in endangering anyone , and of course if there is even one other person there I have a spotter (them) at least that's how I and 100's of other people that post videos interpret the rule,,,, LB I am curious what do you mean by "nose down attitude" I have worked on this view for some time to get it just what I have seen actually flying full scale extra, landing is identical ! you can't see forward very good at all taxing a full scale one (no spotter there) 😁 still looking for anyone that has done aerobatics with dji's , (looking for anyone that has done stunts at all) also have you guys been using any headtracking hardware, It's a non issue if I can't get something else if I can't find something to replace the trinity I have in the fatsharks, you can't do aerobatics without it,,,,, thanks again for your time

 

[LitterBug]

......always wondered about the spotter rule with no one around, it's a little vague, I have read the AMA rules on that and it talks of losing signal with people around, hence I have made it clear that when I am by myself , not in endangering anyone , and of course if there is even one other person there I have a spotter (them) at least that's how I and 100's of other people that post videos interpret the rule,,,, LB I am curious what do you mean by "nose down attitude" I have worked on this view for some time to get it just what I have seen actually flying full scale extra, landing is identical ! you can't see forward very good at all taxing a full scale one (no spotter there) 😁 still looking for anyone that has done aerobatics with dji's , (looking for anyone that has done stunts at all) also have you guys been using any headtracking hardware, It's a non issue if I can't get something else if I can't find something to replace the trinity I have in the fatsharks, you can't do aerobatics without it,,,,, thanks again for your time

The Spotter requirement from an FAA perspective is required in case there is any other "air" traffic in the area. For those of us who are flying less remote than the field in your videos, this can be more of an issue. We get a lot of Heli and GA flyovers in our area. We even had some fool buzzing a house well below 500' across the road from our field in full scale one day.

By nose down camera angle, I was referring to how much of the plane you were looking at verses how much of the surroundings. I guess you are looking for a "Scale" experience if you want to see so much of the plane in your FPV view. It would be interesting to see some of your more recent flights to see how much your setup has progressed. I prefer to see less of the plane, and more of the surroundings. More of a cinematic view as opposed to scale.

My big problem with the DJI setup is the cost. I try to keep this "hobby" reasonable. If I ever take it up to the next level beyond just hobby, I would probably be willing to spend more.

 

[FPVAirCombat]

Don’t know if you consider these aerobatics, but I try to do rolls, point rolls, loops, stall turns as precisely as I can.

 

[PsyBorg]

@Kawamike Here's the thing with DJI latency vs analog. To keep latency down as signal degrades they start reducing the image quality on the edges of the view. For a quad pilot that is the most important part of our vision as that's where we are looking to "Lead" our turns or track the object we fly around like when tree dancing.

Then there is that whole once DJI gets to a certain level the entire thing locks and you have a still picture and must actually reboot the system to get it back. You dont see that issue in many DJI is "best thing since sliced bread" promotional videos by compensated pilots but its a known issue.

Finally as my personal choice I refuse to ride the bus that ran over the hobby which is DJI. Buying their products only supports their efforts to become one of those companies awarded by the gubment for us having to use mandatory gear designed and produced by them. So if you want an electronic leash that you can not over ride in the future support them...

 

[LitterBug]

Not head tracking, but video similar to a plane that I fly with analog, with a view similar to the way I set it up (just a smidge of nose), and just some leisurely flying.

 

[LitterBug]

 

[Kawamike]

This video says it all !

here's a perspective PsyBorg, if it makes the hobby better, why bag on it, it's just a hobby, (one of many of mine actually) it's not a life style or big brother watching ya, it's just flying toys, sorry, no offence to you in any way , just could never figure out why folks get so hardcore about "principle's" that in the end of the day don't really do anything except get them worked up, things are going to change, and will for the better in life, there were plenty of people getting worked up over the introduction of the horseless carriage, change forces people to step up, I'll buy the DJI and probably buy some fatsharks when they catch up, I really also was looking for headtracking suggestions , instead we got dji commentary and and faa rules, trouble with forums, well i'll start a new one with a single very specific question

 

[PsyBorg]

Well Mike (I assume this by your avatar name). Actually it is Big brother. Im not sure how much you keep up on the new laws they are working in or the skeevy process they are doing it all in but they are working on taking the hobby from us mate. Pretty soon if they get their way you will barely have enough space "legally" to take off climb out, go down wind and return in the 400 feet (not to be confused with meters or yards) distance AND altitude to put your fixed wing in the air. (again assuming you live in the USA)

DJI is one of the companies weaseling their way into the hardware required market know as remote ID to be a "sanctioned" vendor as well as one of the vendors for us multi rotor people. So if your choice is DJI digital rock on just be aware you are financing your own extinction for what and how you like to fly. Like any other advice given take it or leave it in the end you gotta do what is right for you legal or not.

PS I have answered your questions and gave viable suggestions how to clean up your videos. Others had already answered your question about pan and tilt in fixed wing.

heres a video from this evening around 4:30 pm as the sun was dropping behind the huge hill. Notice the camera doesn't change at all transitioning from light to shade even after staring straight at the sun for a while. The little bit of screen door is dvr as its not like that in the goggles and is MUCH more clear then you tube compression shows. That is raw footage straight from the goggles.

 

[FPVAirCombat]

I don’t like bringing in politics into hobby discussions but here’s my take on DJI products. While I have strong distaste for Chinese Communist Party and its undue influence on Chinese companies, including using companies data for espionage. I have no choice but to buy DJI FPV if I want the best high definition, immersive, noise free, FPV experience. Or I wouldn’t get into FPV At all - I have never liked the low resolution experience analog offered, so never bought one. There’s hope on the horizon though, as US companies like Skydio also offer HD photography drones that match DJI’s performance and even surpasses it in AI tracking function. If they want to expand, Skydio can expand into FPV market as well. Then I will have a choice other then DJI.

As for companies regulating hobbyist out of existence, there are much bigger fish at play like UPS and Amazon, etc that want the airspace for their delivery drones. Hobbyist never really stand a chance given the $$ involved.

 

[LitterBug]

I have been playing with some Arduino boards lately. I am pretty sure there are some headtracker setups out there based on Arduino that could be used with just about any headset. The other thought I have is to use a flight controller as the head tracker with output to S.bus / s.port into a transmitter. This is something I've been wanting to do, regardless of what FPV gear is being used. So I will be looking at it from just the headtracking perspective.

Cheers!
LitterBug