how do larger quads handle wind?
- Thread starter jipp
- Start date
so i decided id try to add a little weight.. and to my surprise it flew better.. same wind conditions as yesterday.. will be worse by 5pm tho.. heck of a month for wind i tell ya..
anyhow, i did not know how much FPV gear would weigh so i just use the GoPRO weight and strapped it to the back. and it did much better in the wind.
now unfortunately this is not very scientific for two reasons.. i did not do two things before testing this..
A , when i flew yesterday i had not flown for a few days.
B, i finaly got around to learn how to hooking up the nano qx to the DX6i. iv just been using the regular cheap TX it came with..
anyhow before i went out side, i warmed up inside on 5 battery's through the blade nano qx.
either iv improved more than im willing to give my self credit for, or the DX6i makes that big of a difference in how it handles i dunno.
i do know i still think the DX^i feels like a toy compared to my hitect optic 6 im using for the flight sim.
anyhow, the blade nano was a lot of fun and easy to handle with a real TX.
anyhow, practice is good. i feel good about my flying today, much improved over yesterdays outing that is for sure.. hope tomorrow is even better.
thanks for all the reply's, its a interesting subject.. these quads and how they handle the wind.. i wonder how much different a tri is in the wind.
or to fly in general.
chris.
anyhow, i did not know how much FPV gear would weigh so i just use the GoPRO weight and strapped it to the back. and it did much better in the wind.
now unfortunately this is not very scientific for two reasons.. i did not do two things before testing this..
A , when i flew yesterday i had not flown for a few days.
B, i finaly got around to learn how to hooking up the nano qx to the DX6i. iv just been using the regular cheap TX it came with..
anyhow before i went out side, i warmed up inside on 5 battery's through the blade nano qx.
either iv improved more than im willing to give my self credit for, or the DX6i makes that big of a difference in how it handles i dunno.
i do know i still think the DX^i feels like a toy compared to my hitect optic 6 im using for the flight sim.
anyhow, the blade nano was a lot of fun and easy to handle with a real TX.
anyhow, practice is good. i feel good about my flying today, much improved over yesterdays outing that is for sure.. hope tomorrow is even better.
thanks for all the reply's, its a interesting subject.. these quads and how they handle the wind.. i wonder how much different a tri is in the wind.
or to fly in general.
chris.
pungbjoern
Senior Member
This is only 7 days old, so I'm not really waking the zombies here, I hope... 
I have a Blade Nano QX, and at 18 grams it's completely useless in the wind. I'm considering going up to a larger class to counter this. I actually like the size and behavior of the nano, but the wind makes it damn near impossible to fly when the weather is anything less than perfect.
The guy in my hobby store told me I should go with 450 or bigger. That said, they don't really sell anything in 250, so there's a good chance he said 450 because they actually had some for sale (dji flamewheel).
I wouldn't mind a 450 at all, but I'm curious if it'll actually help me. Also, will it help me more than a 250 would? I'm not talking GPS mode here, but whatever "normal" mode is called. I live relatively close to an inner-city air-field where we can kinda-sorta fly, but even on nice days, people do things like fly kites on boards down the runway, so using my nano there is completely impossible.
So, what do you think? is 250 sufficient? Will I need 450? Will it not matter as it'll all be useless anyway? What are your thoughts?
P.S while I'm not made of money, it's not the justification for choosing one size over another. It's more a question of portability and spare parts and knowledge available etc
D.S
I have a Blade Nano QX, and at 18 grams it's completely useless in the wind. I'm considering going up to a larger class to counter this. I actually like the size and behavior of the nano, but the wind makes it damn near impossible to fly when the weather is anything less than perfect.
The guy in my hobby store told me I should go with 450 or bigger. That said, they don't really sell anything in 250, so there's a good chance he said 450 because they actually had some for sale (dji flamewheel).
I wouldn't mind a 450 at all, but I'm curious if it'll actually help me. Also, will it help me more than a 250 would? I'm not talking GPS mode here, but whatever "normal" mode is called. I live relatively close to an inner-city air-field where we can kinda-sorta fly, but even on nice days, people do things like fly kites on boards down the runway, so using my nano there is completely impossible.
So, what do you think? is 250 sufficient? Will I need 450? Will it not matter as it'll all be useless anyway? What are your thoughts?
P.S while I'm not made of money, it's not the justification for choosing one size over another. It's more a question of portability and spare parts and knowledge available etc
D.S
Spastickitten
Senior Member
You also have to think of the size of the area, and the fact that 250 race quads are fast where as the flame wheel will be more towards aerial photography and not sport. Choose what you want in terms of performance too, and there is no true acro on dji flight controllers, it is just no gps mode where the mini quad is no self leveling and manual flips.
An inexpensive home-built 450 can be made for nearly the same cost as an inexpensive home-built 250, so yeah, cost doesn't have to be an issue.
For wind penetration, the quality of your flight control board can cut out most of the wobble and jerk from gusts when tuned properly, but it's the power of the airframe that will keep her from drifting downstream in the river of air. The heavier she is, the more she'll have to have onboard to fight gravity, the more reserve she'll have on hand to fight the flow of air around her . . .
But at the 250 class, a reasonable 2:1 thrust/weight quad you should have PLENTY of power to press against the wind. in strong winds tight PID loops may get jittery and throttle control may get more interesting, but even down to the 200mm class it should be controllable. you'll still have to keep on-top of the throttle in gusty wind, but not unbearably so.
So comes the next question . . . what do you want to do with your quad? flying in tight spaces with aerobatic response? Floating over larger areas taking in the view from above? More like the first, go smaller. More like the second, go bigger. There are ways to make aerobatic quads in the larger classes, and stable camera platforms in the small classes, but you'll find it's difficult to get them to perform as well as the properly matched platforms.
Beyond that, it's up to your personal taste.
For wind penetration, the quality of your flight control board can cut out most of the wobble and jerk from gusts when tuned properly, but it's the power of the airframe that will keep her from drifting downstream in the river of air. The heavier she is, the more she'll have to have onboard to fight gravity, the more reserve she'll have on hand to fight the flow of air around her . . .
But at the 250 class, a reasonable 2:1 thrust/weight quad you should have PLENTY of power to press against the wind. in strong winds tight PID loops may get jittery and throttle control may get more interesting, but even down to the 200mm class it should be controllable. you'll still have to keep on-top of the throttle in gusty wind, but not unbearably so.
So comes the next question . . . what do you want to do with your quad? flying in tight spaces with aerobatic response? Floating over larger areas taking in the view from above? More like the first, go smaller. More like the second, go bigger. There are ways to make aerobatic quads in the larger classes, and stable camera platforms in the small classes, but you'll find it's difficult to get them to perform as well as the properly matched platforms.
Beyond that, it's up to your personal taste.
yeah my nano did not handel in the wind.. so i use it in the house or on non windy days.
me personally im learning to fly so i went with nano qx, mini, then probably 450 - 600 size for aerial stuff.. as that is what im interested in..
good luck. lots of help here to help ya build your quad.. i know if i could do it with the help of this forum, you can. im on the stupid side.. my sister got the brains.
my next build is going to be a mini but larger than 250 at 280mm.
i hope to start that build next month. i just need to order a couple of more parts to start..
chris.
me personally im learning to fly so i went with nano qx, mini, then probably 450 - 600 size for aerial stuff.. as that is what im interested in..
good luck. lots of help here to help ya build your quad.. i know if i could do it with the help of this forum, you can. im on the stupid side.. my sister got the brains.
my next build is going to be a mini but larger than 250 at 280mm.
i hope to start that build next month. i just need to order a couple of more parts to start..
chris.
pungbjoern
Senior Member
"What do I want to do?". That's the perennial question that follows every request for advice, isn't it? =)
As much as I'd like to race, not only do I not have a place in which to race, I also don't have anyone to race with. I think a bigger issue for me is transport. How do I transport a sufficiently large machine to where I want to fly? That's likely less of an issue with a 250 than a 450.
To be honest, I'd be lying if I said I know what I wanted to do. Right now all I know is that I want to be able to fly in the wind. Without that problem solved, everything is academic, because the wind always blows. Eventually I want to get in to FPV, but that is also out of the question until I can ensure that the wind isn't going to just take me down.
Obviously I'm pretty far from being a master pilot, so all those other things are likely in the future anyway.
My ideal setup would be something like electronics that I can simply move between frame sizes. That way, if I want to try out a new size, I can get away with relatively little on a new frame, and simply move my electronics over. That's likely less a thing when you go with a complete solution company like DJI, compared to putting it together myself. Decisions decisions... =)
That's pretty much what I needed to hear . . . And not that terrible of a surprise. A good number of of us here are in the same boat wandering from nitch to nitch enjoying ourselves but rarely settling for too long. Chasing "oooh! that's cool!" is a fun part of the sport
In either direction, the wind will play, but it shouldn't ground you on any but the worst of days.
If transport means a car, for even a small car a 450 isn't that big. If it means a bike or public transit, smaller is better.
If it's a question of build vs. buy, if you're exploring, I'd recommend build (you'll have so much more room to explore). For automated vs. piloted, there's plenty to explore in both directions, but there is more programming/setup/computer work in the automated side, and more stick-time improvement on the piloting side. There will be a little of both on each side, but the bias leans heavily one way or the other depending on the direction you go. That is a matter of taste.
You also don't have to have someone to race against: you always have yourself
Get the feel for the craft (that may take a few months by itself) then set up a simple obstacle course and fly it slowly. then faster. then faster still. Get bored with it? change the route. Go freestyle. Change the venue. The more you do it, the better you'll get.
In either direction, the wind will play, but it shouldn't ground you on any but the worst of days.
If transport means a car, for even a small car a 450 isn't that big. If it means a bike or public transit, smaller is better.
If it's a question of build vs. buy, if you're exploring, I'd recommend build (you'll have so much more room to explore). For automated vs. piloted, there's plenty to explore in both directions, but there is more programming/setup/computer work in the automated side, and more stick-time improvement on the piloting side. There will be a little of both on each side, but the bias leans heavily one way or the other depending on the direction you go. That is a matter of taste.
You also don't have to have someone to race against: you always have yourself
Get the feel for the craft (that may take a few months by itself) then set up a simple obstacle course and fly it slowly. then faster. then faster still. Get bored with it? change the route. Go freestyle. Change the venue. The more you do it, the better you'll get.
pungbjoern
Senior Member
If we're talking exclusively hovering, no or virtually no automatic compensation, at what X is the craft able to remain in (more or less) the same place for wind Y? I'm not sure what X should even be. Is it weight? Is it some kind of lift ratio? Is it physical size? Cross section perhaps? Will everything glide effortlessly on the breeze, or will inertia at some point get in the way? Imagine I'm not touching the sticks at all...
I'll tell you my two most common gripes flying something as small as I am:
1. flying in a circle, you do the mental calculations in your hear when going against the wind, but as soon as you change direction, you're now suddenly flying with the wind, at which point you lose control, and either crash against something or against the ground.
2. Simply taking off in the wind, and not getting a) thrown away sideways or b) simply thrown to the ground violently
Transportation in my case means something like subway or bike. In both cases I'd need to basically fit it on my back. That's of considerably less consequence than wind resilience, though.
I'd prefer to build, but it depends largely on what my hobby store has in store, as it were. I'd ideally like to buy everything form the hobby store, for two reasons. 1. I like to support them. 2. If things break, I don't have to wait for delivery. I can just go there and get what I want. I made mistake 2 when I got in to cars. Having to ship from the UK to Belgium and Germany was much too much of a hassle. That's not to say I can't order the occasional thing online, but nothing sucks as much as a weekend when you want to fly or drive, but you can't because of that one little thing that broke yesterday. This is primarily what limits me, which is why I was curious about the 450 size. As this limits me, I'm less able to take your advice into consideration, as I'll likely be forced to simply accept whatever they sell, but at least I'll be armed with some useful knowledge.
The worst scenario is me spending money on something and having it behave just like my nano qx does today. I really like flying the nano, and I wouldn't mind remaining in that form factor, had it not been for the wind.
I'll tell you my two most common gripes flying something as small as I am:
1. flying in a circle, you do the mental calculations in your hear when going against the wind, but as soon as you change direction, you're now suddenly flying with the wind, at which point you lose control, and either crash against something or against the ground.
2. Simply taking off in the wind, and not getting a) thrown away sideways or b) simply thrown to the ground violently
Transportation in my case means something like subway or bike. In both cases I'd need to basically fit it on my back. That's of considerably less consequence than wind resilience, though.
I'd prefer to build, but it depends largely on what my hobby store has in store, as it were. I'd ideally like to buy everything form the hobby store, for two reasons. 1. I like to support them. 2. If things break, I don't have to wait for delivery. I can just go there and get what I want. I made mistake 2 when I got in to cars. Having to ship from the UK to Belgium and Germany was much too much of a hassle. That's not to say I can't order the occasional thing online, but nothing sucks as much as a weekend when you want to fly or drive, but you can't because of that one little thing that broke yesterday. This is primarily what limits me, which is why I was curious about the 450 size. As this limits me, I'm less able to take your advice into consideration, as I'll likely be forced to simply accept whatever they sell, but at least I'll be armed with some useful knowledge.
The worst scenario is me spending money on something and having it behave just like my nano qx does today. I really like flying the nano, and I wouldn't mind remaining in that form factor, had it not been for the wind.
This depends more on your controller than your airframe beyond a certain point. So long as the airframe has the power to fight the wind, if the controller has a good position fix (GPS) and good control it will do what is necessary to maintain position for you -- it may bounce a bit or fly at an odd angle, but it will fight the wind for you (which will actually do little for improving your piloting skills). If it doesn't then you must be the pilot and your craft will drift in the river of air with the current.
If the craft will only self level and/or altitude hold, *ANY* wind will cause an unbounded drift regardless of how well the craft is tuned or any other physical characteristics -- it is floating in a river of air, being pushed downstream with nothing but the pilot to reference it to a point on the ground. Without position hold, the craft will feel much like it is sliding on ice or floating in water -- any momentum you build up you keep until you counter it, and it will drift as the outside forces press on it. With position hold, the craft is flying for you -- you're only suggesting where you'd like it to go.
Your weight and thrust will contribute to your penetration ability. Your physical dimensions (size of airframe and size of props) will contribute against penetration.
That's not unusual for fighting the wind with a craft too light in weight and power, but high enough drag to give the wind a hold . . . and it's pretty much the same in fixed wing as well. Most 250 class quads will perform better on this than the micor and nano quads driven by brushed motors. If you lean toward a heavier battery (3s2200) or stronger motors (2206-ish), the airframe will perform better in wind, but may loos a lot of it's weightless feel. Tradeoffs.
That may ham-string you a bit since you'll be limited by your LHS's stock (even good ones won't have some exotic gear multirotors crave), but we all make personal choices.
In most cases if you build a reliable frame, the item you will go through most frequently will be props, so needing a local source of supply may not be as critical as you imagine. If you order them in decent quantity (I tend to order them in batches of 30-40 at a time) you should have good warning before you run out in order to reorder. Booms are next most common, depending on the design, so if you go with a locally sourced square wooden dowel, they should be easy to replace, but you'll break them more often.
There are some almost-impossible-to-destroy frames, some in carbon, some in fiberglass, but one I'd recommend (almost because it's on the heavy side) is the "HMB 235" from MultiRC. the frame is cut out of fairly thick HDPE and is a sturdy design. I've been flying 10"x1/2" square HDPE booms on a 550 size V-Tail quad and they're neigh on indestructible. Bendable, sure, but bend it back and you're good to go. the beauty of this is your electronics NEVER take the brunt of the hit. The plastic deforms on impact taking the shock for it and with a little bit of muscle you straighten it out (and replace the props) and you're back in the air in minutes. For what you seem to want to do, this looks to me like a good direction to go, but you will have to order some parts online -- just no way around that.
pungbjoern
Senior Member
This is what I was afraid of. That said, I feel like I really want to stick to this hobby, so maybe I'll just buy a larger frame and go with it. The weather here in Germany will likely decide my next steps.
You really are a fount of knowledge. Thank you so much! =)
No need to be afraid of it -- it's something you learn to deal with.
It's *exactly* like piloting a boat in a big river. You have to get used to the fact you're constantly being pushed downstream, but so long as you've got the motor to push the craft upstream, there's no harm in current. It's one more thing to learn, but not impossible. The NanoQx you're flying is like a small rowboat -- fine in a lake but doomed to be tossed downstream in a river. Get a "boat" built to handle a river and you'll be just fine
It's *exactly* like piloting a boat in a big river. You have to get used to the fact you're constantly being pushed downstream, but so long as you've got the motor to push the craft upstream, there's no harm in current. It's one more thing to learn, but not impossible. The NanoQx you're flying is like a small rowboat -- fine in a lake but doomed to be tossed downstream in a river. Get a "boat" built to handle a river and you'll be just fine
pungbjoern
Senior Member
Wise words =)
I'll have a look at that frame you mentioned. Man, here I am sitting at the office, and all I want to do it to go out and fly!
Where's the airfield when you need it... =)
I'll have a look at that frame you mentioned. Man, here I am sitting at the office, and all I want to do it to go out and fly!
Where's the airfield when you need it... =)
On my F550 with 1.50 lbs in just batteries brings total lift off weight to roughly 5 pounds. This little gal is very stable in the wind. In GPS mode the only way you see it bucking the wind is the frame is tilted in the direction of the wind. However as eluded to in another post my flight time is reduced from 25 minutes to roughly 15 minutes.
My F450's are another story altogether. Lighter weight and less thrust equals getting pushed around a lot more.
pungbjoern
Senior Member
It's interesting you should mention that. I just placed an order for a 450, and I thought I'd stick to 4s 2200mah, for size and weight reasons. Maybe I should have gone bigger. I have some 5000mah 2S packs that I can probably connect together. They'll certainly weigh more.
Don't you feel like you have to battle more with inertia with that much weight? Or do you just have more powerful motors?
Actually the F550 has the E300 kit on it. It's my camera ship so fancy flying is not for her. One of the F450's has the E310 kit on it but has not yet been flown. The other one has a E300 kit on it. Both fly very well on the E300 kits with a NAZA lite for the brain.
If you get the kits from Helipal.com you'll save a bundle. With the NAZA lite and the motor kit, frame, and landing gear it's just over 300 dollars. All you need is the receiver and a battery to complete it.
Ship DHL. No customs BS and very quick. Like 4 days quick.
If you get the kits from Helipal.com you'll save a bundle. With the NAZA lite and the motor kit, frame, and landing gear it's just over 300 dollars. All you need is the receiver and a battery to complete it.
Ship DHL. No customs BS and very quick. Like 4 days quick.
,,,i think for my first AP machine.. i want something like a 450 reptile style frame.. over the more traditional styles for a using a gopro gimbal mounted to the front.. with rear and forward board cams.. im not sure how that kind of gimbal works tho.. i understand the DJI/walker style.. or tarrot adapter so you can slide it onto carbon rods.. but this one seems to mount to the frame it self? shrugs.. AP type stuff is this winters goal.
something like this:
http://www.wowhobbies.com/turboace_matrix-s_fpv_gyrox3_devo10.aspx
i dunno, to me its like on the edge of being a AP machine, yet if you kick it into gear and slam on the throttle its gonna go like a bad out of hell. heh.
large props so very stable.. i like it for some reason.. maybe cease it goes against so many grains. heh. one thing the DJI crap would have too goo.. i really do not like DJI.. they can go brick there har
chris.
something like this:
http://www.wowhobbies.com/turboace_matrix-s_fpv_gyrox3_devo10.aspx
i dunno, to me its like on the edge of being a AP machine, yet if you kick it into gear and slam on the throttle its gonna go like a bad out of hell. heh.
large props so very stable.. i like it for some reason.. maybe cease it goes against so many grains. heh. one thing the DJI crap would have too goo.. i really do not like DJI.. they can go brick there har
chris.
nope ( i did read it, and i said the DJI stuff wold have to go.. ), i would not spend that kind of money on a quad.. im already have a hard time spending money on cheap FPV gear just to see if i will like it.. go figure. i just said that is the style of frame i like and may build for a 450 size quad instead of your typical tarrot 650 Pro hex style frame, i wont ever be using a camera bigger than a go pro so i do not really need the long legs that design offers.. .. and yeah i do dis like DJi, and have no plans on using one anytime soon. have a good evening.. i need some pain meds. stupid leg has kept me up for the last 3 days in a row.. i guess on a good note, my body has to shut down sooner or later yeah.. laughs..
chris.
pungbjoern
Senior Member
Unfortunately (at least in this particular regard), I live in Europe, and we get the short end of the stick when it comes to RC hobby. There are very few stores here, and the ones there are stock very little, and mostly no-name or toy brands. Shipping from the US, while possible, simply isn't practical.
In Germany, there is always customs. Always. Even when you think you've found a way around it, there are customs, and they keep strange opening hours, long lines, and have a single office for a town of 5 million people. That office is on the other end of town. =(
