Knockoff is the New Black
- Thread starter Cyberdactyl
- Start date
The difference is volume. Buy bulk CF, and find a CNC shop whose owner is desperate to keep his machines running that he'll deal, and you have a cheap knockoff. Actually, a lot of cheap knockoffs.
Now that you have a heafty investment in these knockoffs, you don't want them sitting in a warehouse. So you price them to move, with a modest profit. You'll make it up in volume.
Last edited:
FinalGlideAus
terrorizing squirrels
That's funny, I have a prototype frame in front of me (not a Blackout) that has gone through a large design phase including two trips in person to China to source quality Carbon Fiber plate (good quality pre-peg autoclave cured and not laminated), find the actual manufacturers and cut out the middle man, find a cutter that will cut in large volumes accurately and cheaply (and yes I'm talking large amounts) and there is no way in hell you can get that for $34 with a profit margin included. This is being done by a decent size business with proper funding backing and not by some guy in his shed after work hours and it still can't be done for even close to that price. The carbon plate being used is cheap and nasty. Fine if you're just hovering around but if you're using the quad as it was designed for then you will find it's short comings.
I'm hoping part of the flight tests including climbing up to 15m high turning the motors off about 5 or 10 times. That's what the name brand quads are subjected to and survive no problems at all.
I'm hoping part of the flight tests including climbing up to 15m high turning the motors off about 5 or 10 times. That's what the name brand quads are subjected to and survive no problems at all.
kah00na
Senior Member
A while back, my first large order of props was all black because I was only flying FPV with my current LOS quad. When I bought new motors and flight board, I moved the cage and FPV stuff to the new quad and used the new motors. Also, a friend and I ordered a very large order of 5" props and he wanted multiple colors so to make thing simpler, I just ordered the same thing he did. I really need to swap them between my quads. It is a little difficult flying LOS with all the props the same color... flyable and fun, just challenging.
kah00na
Senior Member
Great video. I don't usually like unboxing videos, but this one wasn't too painful. I do like how your skipped all the boring parts during the build itself. Now I'm anxious to see how the mystery compares with the blackout. I guess I will have to just subscribe to your channel.
I see a lot of unboxing videos that seem to drag out. I've done a few and I try to keep the moving along. I figure if people have questions, they'll post them and if the same one coming up alot, I'll just make a more detailed video later.
Cyberdactyl
Misfit Multirotor Monkey
I totally agree some Asian manufacturers probably will use lower-end CF. You can get a hint from photos on their sites when you zoom in on the surface and see the rippled reflections and other imperfections.
But I think the quality of the quad can still be maintained at a 'fair' price when it is mass produced. As I said, I can buy very nice 3mm 8" x 12" plate for under $30 total from China. So I suspect that same quality can be bought in bulk for half that. The cost to copy, or closely approximate a design is virtually no cost. Again, these mini-quads are not rocket science, they are simple cut CF plates with some hardware thrown in.
If there are any Blackout-ish mini's that come close to justifying the cost, one would be Immersion RC's XuGong with its beautifully articulating CNC'd aluminum.
But I think the quality of the quad can still be maintained at a 'fair' price when it is mass produced. As I said, I can buy very nice 3mm 8" x 12" plate for under $30 total from China. So I suspect that same quality can be bought in bulk for half that. The cost to copy, or closely approximate a design is virtually no cost. Again, these mini-quads are not rocket science, they are simple cut CF plates with some hardware thrown in.
If there are any Blackout-ish mini's that come close to justifying the cost, one would be Immersion RC's XuGong with its beautifully articulating CNC'd aluminum.
Last edited:
Had a friend look into having a Chinese company make him carbon fiber and it was absolutely dirt cheap in comparison to buying sheets of it from similar Chinese companies. The cutoff for the minimum was tens of thousands of dollars though, so I don't doubt that it's possible to get decently strong cf for cheap if you go through the proper channels. Considering how labor is handled though, I wouldn't expect great finish work or quality control. I have one of the knock offs, and seen the blackouts in person, there's no comparing the two really. It's not even close to what I would call a knock off either. It's just a cheap carbon quad so there's no sense in a comparison really. Different dimensions, different construction, basically a different material, and a different target market.
kah00na
Senior Member
If anyone is looking for cheap frames to bash around with that most likely have lower quality carbon fiber than more expensive brands, then here is a list of the miniquad frames available from banggood. I made this list because I'm getting tired of searching through the entire category to see the frames.
I look at how some of these are constructed and compare them to my Warp Quad. I don't have to know the quality of the carbon fiber. I can see structural mistakes that Soma avoided that make some of these inferior in a crash or in flight ability.
When I crash a Polakium I can fix it with CA glue. When I crash a FT kit, I replace a boom with 1/2" dowel from the hardware store.
I buy carbon fiber so that when I crash I don't break the copter because CF is hard to repair. I buy carbon fiber because I want long term reliability. The WarpQuad is engineered to handle a crash. Until today, I had no real clue how well engineered to handle a crash it is. The details are subtle and to me worth their weight in gold.
Not only does carbon fiber vary in quality. Even the best carbon fiber used in a poorly engineered frame is a short term investment.
When I crash a Polakium I can fix it with CA glue. When I crash a FT kit, I replace a boom with 1/2" dowel from the hardware store.
I buy carbon fiber so that when I crash I don't break the copter because CF is hard to repair. I buy carbon fiber because I want long term reliability. The WarpQuad is engineered to handle a crash. Until today, I had no real clue how well engineered to handle a crash it is. The details are subtle and to me worth their weight in gold.
Not only does carbon fiber vary in quality. Even the best carbon fiber used in a poorly engineered frame is a short term investment.
Cyberdactyl
Misfit Multirotor Monkey
Thanks for collecting those Kah00na
Crash damage avoidance in the mini FPV multirotor realm is truly an engineer's art WHEN overall size, flying ability, low mass, and volume and/or surface area is considered to contain sensitive electronics.
Two methods emerge.
One is breakaway functionality, the other, brute strength.
Going only the brute avenue, one has to moderate beefing up low probability areas of damage, over those that are evaluated to be highly likely to shatter or snap over the 'safe' regions.
Going purely breakaway . . . shearing nylon screws, releasing clamping friction and pressure, or releasing mass (breaking zip ties holding motors), etc . . . must be balanced against the rebuild effort from such a total breakaway crash.
Ultimately, of course, is a combination of the two. The art is finding the most desirable balance between both at a reasonable price point.
Crash damage avoidance in the mini FPV multirotor realm is truly an engineer's art WHEN overall size, flying ability, low mass, and volume and/or surface area is considered to contain sensitive electronics.
Two methods emerge.
One is breakaway functionality, the other, brute strength.
Going only the brute avenue, one has to moderate beefing up low probability areas of damage, over those that are evaluated to be highly likely to shatter or snap over the 'safe' regions.
Going purely breakaway . . . shearing nylon screws, releasing clamping friction and pressure, or releasing mass (breaking zip ties holding motors), etc . . . must be balanced against the rebuild effort from such a total breakaway crash.
Ultimately, of course, is a combination of the two. The art is finding the most desirable balance between both at a reasonable price point.
I wish I had seen this thread before buying the spider hex frame knockoff.
My order was already placed and I was waiting for it to get here, it just arrived today.
I can definitely tell there are weak points in the design and general overall lower quality versus what I can see in pictures of the 'originals' and from local forum member Twitchity.
Well I already sent him a pm and am making plans to replace this frame because I can tell it probably will not survive one 'decent' crash.
My order was already placed and I was waiting for it to get here, it just arrived today.
I can definitely tell there are weak points in the design and general overall lower quality versus what I can see in pictures of the 'originals' and from local forum member Twitchity.
Well I already sent him a pm and am making plans to replace this frame because I can tell it probably will not survive one 'decent' crash.
Last edited:
FinalGlideAus
terrorizing squirrels
You get what you pay for unfortunately. If you're just hovering around out in the open then it's not as much of an issue because you're crashing less and not as hard but then you have to ask why you bought a carbon mini frame in the first place as they're designed to go fast, low and close to solid objects.
Brute strength is not hard to accomplish on a mini H with a proper design and quality material choice because of the lack of size and weight. As you start getting into the Spider Hex designs and bigger it becomes harder to do. Generally with them you start breaking arms because of the extra energy involved in a crash.
Brute strength is not hard to accomplish on a mini H with a proper design and quality material choice because of the lack of size and weight. As you start getting into the Spider Hex designs and bigger it becomes harder to do. Generally with them you start breaking arms because of the extra energy involved in a crash.
Last edited:
Here are some detailed pictures including some I took with a little microscope toy.
I swapped out the cheap blue rubber standoffs with some black ones I got from HK, also it's just rough assembled I haven't tightened everything down, waiting for some electronics.
The cross-section (last picture) is from one of the front arms, which measure ~2.5mm thick
http://imgur.com/a/6ydb4
I swapped out the cheap blue rubber standoffs with some black ones I got from HK, also it's just rough assembled I haven't tightened everything down, waiting for some electronics.
The cross-section (last picture) is from one of the front arms, which measure ~2.5mm thick
http://imgur.com/a/6ydb4
Last edited:
kah00na
Senior Member
For the rest of us with poor carbon-fiber-judging skills, what are the "weak points in the design" that you are seeing and can you describe in more detail the "over lower quality" you are seeing? I'm not being derogatory, I'm just curious as to what you see. That looks like the frame from goodluckbuy.com.
Yep that's the frame from GLB.
Sorry about that, I meant to include those points in my last post but after putting all the pictures I just went to sleep.
I've got no idea on how to tell what level of quality the carbon fiber is versus others, so hopefully someone with better knowledge might be able to analyze the magnified pictures.
However, these are some things I am a bit concerned with:
CF Issues
- Arms only 2.5mm thick instead of 3mm
- Camera plate is only 1.5mm instead of 2mm
- Some holes and edges seem a little rough (sign of worn tooling?)
- Some corners the CF almost seems like it is waiting to split apart (viewed from side looks like the layers are uneven or separating)
Non-CF Issues
- Brass standoffs are noticeably heavier vs. nylon
- Washers or spacers not provided to prevent brass standoffs from pinching/crushing middle two frame plates
- M2 size screws and nuts seem too small/weak (compared to BO version)
Last edited:
Cyberdactyl
Misfit Multirotor Monkey
Yea, some shopping is in order when searching for a knockoff.
But as to Kah00na's links, the $34 frame from Banggood specifically shows boom thickness screenshots measurements equal to the BO, and main plate thickness exceeding the BO's 1mm and measuring 1.65mm. Only the distribution board is 1.6mm.
But as to Kah00na's links, the $34 frame from Banggood specifically shows boom thickness screenshots measurements equal to the BO, and main plate thickness exceeding the BO's 1mm and measuring 1.65mm. Only the distribution board is 1.6mm.
Last edited:
That mini quad frame seems to be made with a similar 'laminated' (shiny) carbon fiber that the BO is made from.
The spider hex from GLB seems to be more matte, and visibly the cross-section looks different.
Compare the cross-sections from BO's pictures where you can see each individual layer clearly and cleanly.
And the cross-section of an arm from the knockoff mini-quad (bad picture but maybe someone who has one can take a good cross-section picture)
Versus the knockoff spider hex cross-section magnified on my last picture, which you can't really make out the layers well even at a magnified level.
I compare to the WarpQuad, the toughest copter frame I know.
The WQ uses 4mm booms but the real genius is not in the thickness of the booms it is in the length. On a WQ, the 4mm boom penetrates deeply into the frame. They penetrate past the outside edges of the flight controller. The relatively weak 1.5mm top and bottom plates are supported by the 4mm thick booms except for the inside <> 3/4" of the copter. Breaking 1.5mm thick CF that is unsupported for two or three inches is FAR easier than breaking 1.5mm thick CF that is unsupported for 3/4".
Also because of this, the holes that go through the 4mm booms where the booms are connected to the frame are spaced well apart so the holes don't weaken the booms. To add a final measure of genius the inner holes are the mounting holes for the flight controller. This cuts out 4 holes and 4 screws and allows for the deep penetrating support of the upper and lower plates.
Another aspect of the WQ booms is that they stick out well past the motor on the end. This provides superior protection to the motor in a crash.
Finally the WQ comes with high grade hardware. This includes stop nuts to bolt your props down because your SunnySky prop nuts have a tendency to come loose in hard acro. Soma didn't want you using cheap, soft hardware and provides superior, light weight, hardened hardware to augment the strength of the 4mm CF booms.
Soma is a flight enginnering artist. These nuances are subtle but have a profound impact on quality.
I fly cheap frames that break and are easy to repair or tough as nails frames that are harder than heck to break. Having a cheap frame that is easy to break but hard to repair begs for replacement parts. I suspect Banggood makes most of the profit selling replacement booms and plates due to impacts cracking the center plates where the boom attaches and due to lengthwise splits of the thin plates.
On a carbon fiber copter, the only part I want to replace are the rotors. I don't mind replacing wood booms or gluing plastic back together but having to order a replacement boom or center plates indicates a fundamental mistake when I ordered the original frame.
The WQ uses 4mm booms but the real genius is not in the thickness of the booms it is in the length. On a WQ, the 4mm boom penetrates deeply into the frame. They penetrate past the outside edges of the flight controller. The relatively weak 1.5mm top and bottom plates are supported by the 4mm thick booms except for the inside <> 3/4" of the copter. Breaking 1.5mm thick CF that is unsupported for two or three inches is FAR easier than breaking 1.5mm thick CF that is unsupported for 3/4".
Also because of this, the holes that go through the 4mm booms where the booms are connected to the frame are spaced well apart so the holes don't weaken the booms. To add a final measure of genius the inner holes are the mounting holes for the flight controller. This cuts out 4 holes and 4 screws and allows for the deep penetrating support of the upper and lower plates.
Another aspect of the WQ booms is that they stick out well past the motor on the end. This provides superior protection to the motor in a crash.
Finally the WQ comes with high grade hardware. This includes stop nuts to bolt your props down because your SunnySky prop nuts have a tendency to come loose in hard acro. Soma didn't want you using cheap, soft hardware and provides superior, light weight, hardened hardware to augment the strength of the 4mm CF booms.
Soma is a flight enginnering artist. These nuances are subtle but have a profound impact on quality.
I fly cheap frames that break and are easy to repair or tough as nails frames that are harder than heck to break. Having a cheap frame that is easy to break but hard to repair begs for replacement parts. I suspect Banggood makes most of the profit selling replacement booms and plates due to impacts cracking the center plates where the boom attaches and due to lengthwise splits of the thin plates.
On a carbon fiber copter, the only part I want to replace are the rotors. I don't mind replacing wood booms or gluing plastic back together but having to order a replacement boom or center plates indicates a fundamental mistake when I ordered the original frame.
Cyberdactyl
Misfit Multirotor Monkey
I think the WQ is using 4mm because of how narrow the boom is. But I suspect even 4mm is overkill for 98% of crashes. For SURE 4mm is overkill regarding stiffness for flight. It has, more or less, the same cross sectional area as the mini's we're talking about.
Going deep into the frame sure does improve the stiffness. For all practical purposes, it makes the 200mm frame center plate a virtual 7mm plate.
I'm using 2mm for mine throughout and I can't imagine breaking the booms which are 2mm x 20mm x 80mm. The 20mm dimension being more or less equivalent to most of the CF mini quads in this thread.
Going deep into the frame sure does improve the stiffness. For all practical purposes, it makes the 200mm frame center plate a virtual 7mm plate.
I'm using 2mm for mine throughout and I can't imagine breaking the booms which are 2mm x 20mm x 80mm. The 20mm dimension being more or less equivalent to most of the CF mini quads in this thread.
kah00na
Senior Member
You forgot to mention that the CF was covered in oil and had to be cleaned off before you could put it together.
Right?Similar threads
