Knockoff is the New Black

[cranialrectosis]

I think the WQ is using 4mm because of how narrow the boom is. But I suspect even 4mm is overkill for 98% of crashes. For SURE 4mm is overkill regarding stiffness for flight. It has, more or less, the same cross sectional area as the mini's we're talking about.

Going deep into the frame sure does improve the stiffness. For all practical purposes, it makes the 200mm frame center plate a virtual 7mm plate.

I'm using 2mm for mine throughout and I can't imagine breaking the booms which are 2mm x 20mm x 80mm. The 20mm dimension being more or less equivalent to most of the CF mini quads in this thread.

I think if I tried to break my WarpQuad over my knee, I would just end up with a busted knee. I have heard of a broken boom on a WarpQuad caused when an ESC shorted out against the CF and cooked the boom but I think broken WarpQuads are pretty rare and I have seen EarHog and Soma, FGA and Warthox smack a WQ pretty frickin' hard.

Not over thier knees of course.

 

[FinalGlideAus]

Did someone say breaking a Warpquad?...

https://vimeo.com/100878134

https://vimeo.com/85617210

You can't tell that much from just looking at the outside layers of carbon plate. It's very easy to just put the pretty stuff on the outside and put crap on the inside. You can get a bit more info by looking at the layup on the side but it only tells you a small amount. Knowing the type of carbon used, the layup process and and the direction of the fibers is the only real way to know.

With all due respect Cyber, it's all well and good to theorize on thickness of Carbon plate needed on the frame but nothing beats real world testing and the most I have seen you do (and you even have said so) is hover in a safe place. People like Soma had to theorize initially with the prototype designs but after real world testing many changes were made. It hasn't stopped there either. After more long term testing a new carbon plate layup may be used soon down the track for better shock durability. To date I think about 6 Warpquad arms have been broken. 2 WQ 200mm arms and 4 WQ 230mm arms. I think EArHog has broken all the 230mm arms but this is the punishment they went through to get there. Three crashes on concrete and two water landings...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKUevXyzf88

 

[califrag]

You forgot to mention that the CF was covered in oil and had to be cleaned off before you could put it together. Right?

Hm there wasn't any oil on it.

There was a little bit of black dust which I assumed to be leftover from cutting the CF but there was no oil. It was a dry powder, definitely not wet, and I didn't use any cleaner or anything just rubbed it off with my thumb.

I knew I shoulda took pictures of that before I wiped it off.

 

[Cyberdactyl]

Did someone say breaking a Warpquad?...

Thanks for those links. I'm hoping Bruce does much the same with the mini quad knockoffs. I have a feeling he won't go to those extremes. But here's hoping.

Soma found the weak link is at the screws in the bucket test as well as the throwing test.

I'm sure he realizes there are three things he can do to push the envelope even wider from damage.

One is clamp the booms so to not have the weak point at a drilled hole. But I see the WQ widens at the screws, so that's a plus.

Second is to slightly taper the frame plates where the boom exits the frame. This would require very slight, and precise half free form fillet curve and probably require precise torquing of the clamping screws to work as designed. I doubt the average Joe could... or would do that. However, it would allow the CF to bend over a wider area and shed load before breaking.

Third is to have breakaway motor mounts. After seeing the video, I'm pretty sure if the battery, as well as the motor mass could be released on impact, the frame would be as close to indestructible as possible within the speeds and orientations of 99% of impacts. . .in hard soil. . .at least.

But the first two gives ...maybe... 10% more impact resistance, when raising the thickness of the CF by 0.5mm would do the same. But, as I said last page, it's all a matter of give and take in production and material cost.

 

[kah00na]

Hm there wasn't any oil on it.

There was a little bit of black dust which I assumed to be leftover from cutting the CF but there was no oil. It was a dry powder, definitely not wet, and I didn't use any cleaner or anything just rubbed it off with my thumb.

I knew I shoulda took pictures of that before I wiped it off.

I was asking because I bought that same frame and all my carbon fiber was covered in oil.

 

[cranialrectosis]

I'm pretty sure if the battery, as well as the motor mass could be released on impact, the frame would be as close to indestructible as possible within the speeds and orientations of 99% of impacts. . .in hard soil. . .at least.

The battery is held in place by friction with foam tape under the main frame and the battery strap loop. I haven't had a lipo slip out in flight yet (Earhog has and I'm still laughing), but the battery almost always ejects in a crash.

It is one of Soma's points in the build video. He wanted the builder to understand that nuance so you don't duct tape the lipo in place and add stress to the frame in a crash.

We need some type of break away bolt head that locks in place well enough that we don't cause a ton of vibration.

 

[Mustang7302]

 

[Cyberdactyl]

That certainly lowers the argument of buying a sub $40 CF frame Blackout knockoff. I would say it ..could.. be that they have so many orders they are pushing their CNC machines too fast with cutters and bits too dull, but that doesn't make up for the poor quality CF and mis-matching the surface textures.

I'm surprised the quality control is so low. It would seem they could charge $10 more per unit and bump the quality up considerably.

 

[jhitesma]

The battery is held in place by friction with foam tape under the main frame and the battery strap loop. I haven't had a lipo slip out in flight yet (Earhog has and I'm still laughing), but the battery almost always ejects in a crash.

I've had one eject. I didn't care for Soma's suggested rate on yaw - found it way too slow. So I cranked it up to what I like and when I did a spin the battery went flying.

It is one of Soma's points in the build video. He wanted the builder to understand that nuance so you don't duct tape the lipo in place and add stress to the frame in a crash.

I know it's on purpose but it's the one thing I'm really not a fan of on the warp. I haven't come up with any improvements though so I haven't said much since I don't like pointing out things I don't like unless I have fixes available as well. The velcro that comes with it doesn't really impress me, seems to have very little grip. It's nice and light...but just doesn't seem to want to stay attached to itself. The way it's looped also seems to make it hard for me to get the battery in tight - again I know it's designed to come loose in a crash...but for the kind of flying it's designed for it just doesn't seem like the battery is secure enough and after that in flight ejection I've been wary of my flying with it (since it's not mine and I don't want to damage it before I have to return it after this weekend!)

The other issues I have with the battery mounting are that the foam tape is disintegrating already and one layer of tape is just barely even with the tops of the screw heads and I'm getting dings on my batteries from those screw heads rubbing against them.

I think a second layer of foam tape at a minimum is required...but if it was my quad I'd also be adding a bit of velcro on top of the foam to help keep the pack from slipping. With a small piece of velcro it should give enough extra friction to keep it from sliding out in high G yaw but still loose enough to let the pack fly in a crash.

So I guess I do have suggestions - 2 layers of foam instead of one and a bit of velcro on the pack. Heck just some "Hook" side of the velcro (the stiffer side) on the battery would probably give it enough bite against the foam to solve the "issue". I just haven't tried yet since it's not my quad and not my packs...and I've standardized on loop side on my packs so it would require my warp packs be velcro'd opposite of the rest of my packs which bugs me

We need some type of break away bolt head that locks in place well enough that we don't cause a ton of vibration.

I'm still wanting to experiment with nylon bolts on my knuckle to see if they'd work well as a fuse so I don't have to replace arms quite as often Just haven't found a source for the right size without having to buy a couple thousand of them.

 

[jhitesma]

I'm surprised the quality control is so low.

Wait, you've bought stuff from China before haven't you

I'm surprised it's as high as it is

I haven't had a chance to watch Bruce's vid yet...but what you just summarized sounds about like the best I would expect from a cheap Chinese frame.

I just got 4 DYS 1806 motors from banggood for a new build - they showed up yesterday. Out of the box 1 of them was binding and seizing when I turned it by hand Ordered a replacement (multirotorminis.com now has them at the same price here in the states and shipped the same day I ordered!) but took a closer look at the one that was seizing and found it had some kind of black ferrous sand or grit in it. At first I thought a magnet had chipped and that was what the dirt was - but upon closer inspection it was just more chunks of the grit. After an hour with some fine tip tweezers and a magnifier I got it all cleaned out and the motor is turning as well as the other 3.

Even if it had been something more serious I would't have been shocked and wouldn't have bothered trying to get a refund. When I buy from China that's the risk I know I'm taking.

Again, I'm not against cheap knockoff frames. I think they fill a very important niche. I just think people need to be realistic about it and expect that those cheap frames are going to come with some compromises. One of the joys of building the warp was how well things just worked and how well thought out it all was. On a cheap frame I would fully expect to be tweaking and adjusting things...which I actually enjoy...but not all do. And there's really something to be said for a well designed, well sourced, well built model when it's in the air. It really is one of those things where the total ends up being more than the sum of the parts...but having good parts to start with really ups that final total

This build I'm about to dig in on will be interesting...won't be a "budget" build but it will be budget minded.....

 

[Cyberdactyl]

Wait, you've bought stuff from China before haven't you

I guess I've been extraordinarily lucky. Of course I rarely order 'blind', meaning I almost always order stuff that has been thoroughly reviewed or recommended by someone I know or by multiple reviews in a forum. For example, David W's recommendations for his tricopter. While they needed extra work (F20As and the DT750s) they have run for close to two years and are still running strong.

 

[cranialrectosis]

I've had one eject. I didn't care for Soma's suggested rate on yaw - found it way too slow. So I cranked it up to what I like and when I did a spin the battery went flying.

I put my yaw on 80. Are you running 2200s or something?

 

[FinalGlideAus]

I think his latest settings accidentally still had some negative expo in his tx when doing those settings (because he had that in the old 2.2 settings) which caused the poor yaw for others. Not sure if he's updated the settings yet

 

[jhitesma]

I know he mentioned wanting to update it, but as I'm sure you know he seems quite busy lately. I only had it up in the mid 40's at the time but it was enough to eject the pack. Surprised the heck out of me when it did. I've be hesitant to turn it up much further even though I still want it higher

I got to watch Bruce's video lately and have to admit I was a little surprised. The one arm totally different doesn't seem that shocking but that I didn't think of it as an example of the kind of thing to expect did shock me as I've had that one happen a couple of times.

 

[FinalGlideAus]

Ive found if the battery ejects in normal flight it's not done up tight enough. Happened to myself and Soma once each and since then we make sure it's nice and snug and it hasn't happened since but the battery still ejects in a crash like planned. It would be nice if that Velcro had a longer lifespan but I find usually I tear it before it looses it's grip. That stuff now holds on the batteries and möbius on all my quads and hasn't failed apart from that one time.

 

[Cyberdactyl]

One reason I put the battery on top of my mini was to allow it to tear free. You can improve or lower that release force by using the cheap 'velcro strap on a roll' to hold the battery.

I see there are a couple of box mini's that allow the battery to be put inside, or the individual decides to go that route. I assume the screws are "designed" to release (shear) on impact. I use quotes because many quads I see on rcgroups, the crash aspect of the design is ignored. But then again, most are a first attempt and they are simply trying to get them to fly.

 

[cranialrectosis]

I run the battery cables next to the lipo under the strap. It keeps the battery cable from flipping up into the rotors when I do crazy stuff and provides a bit more tension between the battery strap and the lipo. The battery ejects from the copter when I crater and I haven't had a lipo prematurely abandon ship or had a cable flip up into the rotors since I did this.

 

[jhitesma]

Yeah, I tuck the battery cables too. I just have a really hard time getting the velcro tight the way Soma suggests looping it around.

I'm starting to think a big part of the problem is that foam that comes with the warp just isn't well suited for our weather here The thin foam tape for the ESC's disintegrated almost immediately and the foam for the batteries isn't holding up much better.

FWIW - I have yet to successfully cook an egg on the pavement, I did get one to start to set up around the edges but that's as close as I've got. I have however baked cookies in my truck and made all kinds of things in a carboard box painted black with tinfoil on the flaps and a turkey baking bag stretched over the opening...one of these days I really want to build a permanent solar oven for summer use. I also know that if I don't pick up my newspaper in the morning then by lunchtime it will be yellowed and crispy and there's a good chance the pages will start to fall apart. (when I first moved here it was afternoon delivery around 3 or so...and by the time most people got home after 5 their papers would be yellowed on one side and brittle.) If I leave a plastic bag sitting out in the sun for a day and try to pick it up the next day it will fall apart, leave it out for 2-3 days and it will crumble to dust. When I first moved here I thought it was a lowrider cultural thing that everyone had carpet on their car dashes. I learned quickly that it's out of necessity. If you don't even a new cars dash will only last a year or two before cracking. It's hot here. Thankfully it's barely hit 105 all week so I'm hoping I can have one last fun weekend with the warp. Though it's been rather windy in exchange for the heat....

 

[Cyberdactyl]

I've read you can slow cook a small pork shoulder over a full day in direct sun out there wrapped in foil and then wrapped in a tight black matte bag. . .

 

[cranialrectosis]

Yeah, I tuck the battery cables too. I just have a really hard time getting the velcro tight the way Soma suggests looping it around.

I'm starting to think a big part of the problem is that foam that comes with the warp just isn't well suited for our weather here The thin foam tape for the ESC's disintegrated almost immediately and the foam for the batteries isn't holding up much better.

FWIW - I have yet to successfully cook an egg on the pavement, I did get one to start to set up around the edges but that's as close as I've got. I have however baked cookies in my truck and made all kinds of things in a carboard box painted black with tinfoil on the flaps and a turkey baking bag stretched over the opening...one of these days I really want to build a permanent solar oven for summer use. I also know that if I don't pick up my newspaper in the morning then by lunchtime it will be yellowed and crispy and there's a good chance the pages will start to fall apart. (when I first moved here it was afternoon delivery around 3 or so...and by the time most people got home after 5 their papers would be yellowed on one side and brittle.) If I leave a plastic bag sitting out in the sun for a day and try to pick it up the next day it will fall apart, leave it out for 2-3 days and it will crumble to dust. When I first moved here I thought it was a lowrider cultural thing that everyone had carpet on their car dashes. I learned quickly that it's out of necessity. If you don't even a new cars dash will only last a year or two before cracking. It's hot here. Thankfully it's barely hit 105 all week so I'm hoping I can have one last fun weekend with the warp. Though it's been rather windy in exchange for the heat....

Been in the high 50s at night here. We had our first snow in the high country last night and the aspen groves are starting to turn. Winter is coming and fast. In 20-30 days I will have to blow out my sprinkler systems.

At least snow tends to suppress the sand and dust.