More maH, more cells or more thrust??

In an effort to improve run times I have a bunch of seemingly silly questions running around in my head I cant figure out.

Do larger props = more thrust = more rotating mass (flywheel effect) = less power to maintain revs = less current draw?

or

Do larger props = more thrust = more mass = bigger drain = less run time?

Conversely, do smaller props = faster rpm = more thrust = less drain??

And to improve run time, will a 4000maH battery = twice the duration of a 2200 maH?

Will two 2200mah in parallel roughly equal same run time as one 4000mah?

Lastly, I guess its sorta obvious, but will a 3000mah 4s last longer than a 3000mah 3s??

Many thanks.
Drew
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
Longer rotors are more efficient at providing thrust until you get so long that the tip breaks the sound barrier and bad things happen.

All else being equal, longer rotors provide more thrust for less power. More thrust per revolution means less throttle from you and longer flight times.

Smaller props can be spun faster. Faster spinning props give you better control surfaces and make for better response. Use short rotors on little copters that go FAST and do flips. Use long rotors on copters to carry expensive cameras with gimbals and take beautiful aerial video.

The mini copters tend to not have such great flight times. Use small batteries to make them light for aerobatics and to limit destruction in a crash. Big copters with long rotors are designed to be stable platforms to lift stuff. The lighter the load, the longer it can fly.

Which gets us into battery times. More mAh means more weight as well as more power. With any setup will be a 'sweet spot'. Too light a battery and you leave some flight time on the table. Too heavy a battery and you can reduce flight time. In the middle is where you want to be.

Consider this first and foremost before you buy a big heavy battery. When you crash a 500 gram copter you replace a rotor or maybe some standoffs and a boom. When you crash an 1100 gram copter, you are replacing landing struts, multiple booms, camera mounts and potentially motors. Heavy batteries add inertia and inertia is a bad bad thing in a crash.

I fly <500 gram copters with 1000, 1300, 1800 and 2200 mAh lipos. Heavy batteries don't flip so well but they cut through the wind better. Little batteries don't smash your copter when you botch a flip and they only last 8 minutes or so. This is a good thing because that is about as long as I can maintain concentration to fly a little 250 and do flips in my yard. :)
 
Last edited:

RoyBro

Senior Member
Mentor
You know, there really should be a rating system for questions and responses. I'd give cranialrectosis high marks for that one. :applause:
 

BEEAH

New member
I wonder about the same things and know the basic answers but am going to play around with my own testing. I was able to snag the ElectroHub and kit before it sold out and could not be happier with how it flyes. The Flip 1.5 is just stupid stable. I'm interested in fligh times and stability so I'm going to extend the booms from 10" to 12" and go from 9x4.5 to 10x4.5 and see how it reacts. Hopefully it won't push the motors too much.
 

Craftydan

Hostage Taker of Quads
Staff member
Moderator
Mentor
All true . . . but to add . . .

you will get stuck on a local maximum balancing larger battery's weight with the addded flight time . . . except . . . If your power system can handle it, you can get off that curve and onto the next one up by moving up a cell on your pack.

Even while spinning a smaller prop, and 33% to 50% more weight for the same mAh, you get so much more thrust you can step up to even higher mAh packs and the local maximum is at a FAR higher flight time. As a free bonus, you'll also get a far more responsive control (higher RPM) but to fully take advantage and get the best times, you'll be adding sufficent mass that your heavier copter will perform . . . differently.
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding face plant!
Mentor
Dan is absolutely correct.

Just remember, the added weight from going up a cell may be offset dramatically in the air giving you tons more thrust and flight time. But on the ground, the extra weight is inertia that can reduce your frame to rubble in a crash.

There CAN be more reward with a heavier battery. There WILL be more risk the more weight you have in the air.

More fun is almost always more risk here on planet Earth. :)

Because of these concepts it is generally accepted on this forum that 4S and up are for experienced builders/flyers.

By all means experiment. That is the point of FliteTest. But be aware of the hazards. There is a reason we don't all start out at 4S. :)
 

Craftydan

Hostage Taker of Quads
Staff member
Moderator
Mentor
CR, I agree.

Yeah . . . I get where a new pilot flys a quad for 6 min and gets disappointed he has to land to swap packs, but for many, they want to build that agile FPV ship with 45 min flight time capable of following an acrobat through a circus tent . . . not quite realizing they really want nothing of the sort, not to mention the impossibility of it.

4 minutes of truly aerobatic flying is a blast, but tireing. 10 minutes of multirotor FPV can become really long, and once you get over beating the technical challenge, long range FPV beyond a mile is usually boring . . . you just spend more time looking at either "Away" or "Toward" home flying in a straight line -- can't afford to go off exploring :p

While I support guys who want to eek out a few more minutes out of a flight, if you don't have the reason to be up there (keeping the camera on a subject), and the skills and gear to stay out of trouble . . . the better investment is to work on the skills first. there are quite a few skilled phantom pilots (they usually learned to fly something else first), but the droves of stick-banging drone-pilots screams it's better to learn your art first before you start painitng ceiling frescos while holding the "auto-brush" standing on a sub standard ladder.
 

joshuabardwell

Senior Member
Mentor
Do larger props = more thrust = more rotating mass (flywheel effect) = less power to maintain revs = less current draw?

All of the components of a power system contribute to your flight time. You usually won't get the best results by holding all the components constant and changing just one. So, for example, if you take a quad that has been optimized for 3S, and swap it for a 4S, the flight characteristics will change, but they probably won't be optimal any more. The motor and prop that work best with a 3S won't be the same motor and prop that work best with a 4S.

So what about prop size? In general, if you keep your motor the same and you increase the size of the prop, several things will happen. 1) You will get more thrust. Larger props produce more thrust than smaller ones. 2) The motor will draw more current, because it is having to work harder to spin the prop against the air resistance. You can see that there is a balancing act. As you increase the prop size, the motor's current draw goes up and thrust goes up.

At a certain point, you reach the motor's maximum current rating. What do you do then, if you still want to go to a larger prop? You switch to a lower kv motor. Because the motor is spinning slower, it draws less current, and it can swing the larger props. You could also switch to a motor with a higher current rating, but this approach is usually not preferred, because these motors are larger and heavier, and we usually want to keep weight to a minimum.

You asked:

Do larger props = more thrust = more mass = bigger drain = less run time?
Conversely, do smaller props = faster rpm = more thrust = less drain??

Now, you can see that the answer is not quite as simple as that. Larger props generally produce higher run times, but they have to be combined with motors that have an optimal kv rating, otherwise they will pull too much current and their efficiency won't be maximized.

And to improve run time, will a 4000maH battery = twice the duration of a 2200 maH?

No. Because when you add battery capacity, you add weight. Think of it this way: say you've got a 1 kg craft with a 2200 mAh battery on it. That battery has to lift 1 kg. Now let's say you add another 2200 mAh battery, which brings the all-up weight to 1.2 kg. Now you have 4400 mAh of capacity, but instead of lifting 1 kg, it has to lift 1.2 kg. So your capacity doubled, but your weight increased by 20% as well. If you were to double capacity while keeping all-up weight constant, then your flight time would roughly double, but usually when we add battery capacity, our all-up weight increases. So there is a law of diminishing returns in effect. You would see an inverse-exponential curve, with a plateau at the top where adding more battery capacity would add an infinitesimally small flight time.

Also bear in mind that thrust-to-weight ratio is going to come into play. If you have a 1 kg quad that is producing 3 kg of thrust, for a TWR of 3:1, and you add a ton of batteries until it weighs 2 kg, now the TWR is 3:2, and it probably won't fly very well. So you go back to the drawing board and pick different motors, different props, etc... this is why quad power system design can get complicated.

Will two 2200mah in parallel roughly equal same run time as one 4000mah?

Yes. The key parameter here is mAh per gram of battery weight. The two 2200 mAh will be slightly worse than one 4400 mAh, because there is extra wire and connectors, but the difference should be minimal.

Lastly, I guess its sorta obvious, but will a 3000mah 4s last longer than a 3000mah 3s??

In general, yes. By increasing voltage, you will increase motor RPM. This means that you will need less throttle to achieve a given amount of thrust. Assuming your flight behavior stays the same, you will fly longer on 4S than 3S. But to really make the most out of the system, you should do more than simply swap battery. Most of the time, if you switch from 3S to 4S, you will be able to change to a more efficient prop that will make the most of the higher voltage.

EDIT: And of course, that assumes that your motors can handle the 4S voltage/current. If they burn up because they can't handle it, then you won't get a longer flight time. Duh!
 
Last edited: