Should I give up on planes and stick with multi rotors?

[peddiparth]

I love building the FT swappable and non-swappable planes. Even my wife tells me that I take too long to build the swappables exactly like in the videos, and that I am over zealous/meticulous with build dimensions and build process. I have watched the build videos multiple times. I have downloaded and played with the simulator, and am able to do the figure 8 with the planes in it.

BUT, when I try to fly my FT planes, I crash them in the first few seconds.
My longest uncontrolled flight with FT-22 was exactly 5 seconds that resulted in a crash and broken prop. Most crashes result in a broken prop, or broken plane, or both.

I have tried FT Flyer (broken tail + broken prop), FT Nutball (broken prop, dented front end), FT-22 Raptor (broken nose), FT Viggen (broken power pod holder + super tail heavy + wants to roll over its back all the time). The only plane I have built and not flown is my FT Versa.

I have watched all FT videos over and over to find something that I am missing with learning to fly. There is definitely something that is being done automatically by the experienced FT staff that is not being reported in the videos. I hope they get hold of a complete noob who shows the FT staff how we crash the planes we build.

The most success with flying I have had till now is with my Nano QX which I am able to fly ahead of me while walking in my house. I have had a few crashes, but not as many as my FT plane trials.
I am in the process of re-building my tri-copter (David's design) after a 50 ft crash.

My final aim is to get into FPV flying. I already have the goggles, AV tx/rx setup with minimosd (with APM 2.5 on my tricopter), but am taking the advice of others in the forms and am waiting for better success rate with multi-rotor flight. Right now, I don't have the courage/confidence to put the APM 2.5 on my FT planes.

So here are my questions:
1. Should I give up on flying planes and stick with multi rotors?
2. What am I doing wrong with my FT planes? Why do I have success with simulators but not with actual planes?
3. Should I just buy a trainer that is more crash proof than foam board planes?

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My electronics:
DT-750
Turnigy Plush 30amp ESC
1500 mah 3c lipo
turnigy 9x tx/rx
hextronics 9g servos
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Failed planes in the order of build:
FT Versa (Not flown yet, but recently fixed with new build knowledge)
FT Nutball
FT-22 Raptor
Custom build Nutball with Elevons
FT Viggen
FT Flyer
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[nistrum]

ok, i have a few questions first.

1. how are you launching? if you are throwing them and then trying to catch the plane before it lawn darts then there is a real tendency to overcompensate as it dives which will make it very hard to recover before planting the prop in the dirt.
have you tried getting a buddy to lob your plane for you?

2. how is your throttle control?
are you pushing the throttle to the firewall all the time?
a lot of crashes I see, especially the really damaging ones are where people are trying to compensate by pushing the throttle and pulling up. which as a rule generally ends badly.... fly at "cruising" speed, only really push it at take off or when climbing hard.


3. How are you crashing?
this is important. is obviously seems like your flying face first into the ground but are you rolling over first? are you stalling first?
from what i have seen from the nutballl and the flyer they wont give you the roll over tipstall of death. but the others in all likelihood will. You have to watch out for loss of control when banking. i have seen a great many people pull into a steep bank, lose lift on the wings and cartwheel their planes into the next world. to start with you really want to try and fly a trainer style plane with a decent dihedral on the wings and rudder control. work your way up to ailerons slowly.

IF however you are trying to climb after launch pushing the power and stall, thats slightly less problematic. you dont NEED to get to the ceiling in under 10s. a shallow climb will do you just fine.
remember to take off into the wind get about 40 ft and then reduce that climb angle. it will help you maintain a climb rate that wont see you stalling out so quickly and so close to the ground...

ok i think that's all i got.

if you can remember the nature of the crash or even better show us a video of whats happenening to you we might be able to help you out


:::EDIT::: oh and trees are evil, avoid trees:::EDIT:::

 

[Tactical Ex]

1. Don't give up! It CAN be done!

2. Simulators can fool you in some regards, I actually fly my FT planes better IRL and I'm a noob. Simulators are good for practicing orientation and building muscle memory for maneuvers but it cant really give you a FEEL for the plane in flight like real life. Firstly, I fly my FT Flyer with ease and I am a noob, I only finished and flew my first RC plane EVER in mid January (It is now mid-march). I know nobody else in the hobby that is local and Flite Test is my only real anchor to information. If I can do it, you can, trust me. There has to be something tiny but significant that is holding you back but I'm sure I and others will pin it down on this thread so that you can enjoy planes like many of us in the Flite Test community.

So to start the troubleshooting process, how do you take off? From the ground with landing gear or hand launch, AND what is the wind condition?


3. I don't know anything more durable than the Versa, It was my first plane and I have re-used the wings on more than 3 new planes so far.

 

[rcspaceflight]

Not every aspect of the hobby is for every one. I don't know why, but personally I absolutely HATE flying wings. I hate the way they look, I hate the why they fly in simulators. I never have flown a real one, but I just hate them, so why would I buy one? I also don't like multirotors. I never have flown one, not even in a sim, but they just don't appeal to me in any regard. Okay, rant over. I should probably give some advice.

One common thing is having too much throws on a plane. I know that's something I did. I figured more throw meant more control. But it's the opposite. It is better to have too much throw than not enough, but you stay out of a lot of trouble when you are able to bash the sticks without the plane instantly nose diving.

So my little bit of advice is to set dual rates on your Tx. Probably start with 50% and 100% throws. Then try flying one of your planes with only 50% throws. It should be easier but if you don't have enough control, you can always flip the switch to 100%.

Also, the DT-750 isn't the best motor. Well, looking at the specs with a 3 cell battery and the 11x4 prop you should have a lot of pulling power while staying slow. But that might still be too slow. You never said prop size, so if you're using an 8x4, you're only pulling about 12ounces of thrust. The 11x4 prop would be more like 44ounces. A HUGE difference.

But nothing wrong with only staying with multirotors if that's what you prefer. I'd hate to see someone give up on something they want to do, so if you're interested in planes, keep at it.

 

[rcspaceflight]

Oh, and I don't know if you referred to the FT planes I made for RC Desk Pilot, but those planes (and any plane for a simulator) are made as if they have all of the correct throws and power and CG and flying weight and all of the factors that you encounter in real life.

Planes in simulators are built perfectly. Yours might not be. So finding what's different with your planes should solve the issues you're having. But it's most likely throws or power.

 

[NewZee]

Don't give up. Don't ever give up! I'm not sure why you're not having good results, every FT plane I have built has flown at least a few times? I have flown the Spitfire, Old Fogey, A Cub I designed, and am now doing a twin boom design not flown yet. All I can say is 3/4 to full throttle, and a good hard throw at the horizon (or maybe a little up). Once you have done your first loop or roll you will be hooked! my planes have all taken a beating but are still flying! Good luck !! BTW all my planes use a 1200KV motor with a 1300mAh battery and 8X4 or 9X6 props.

 

[peddiparth]

Thanks for the support guys, I needed the confidence boost after crashing every time I fly a plane.

I have had bad luck with DIY wheels (pool noodle version) where they just come off the landing gear of the plane on a crash (3 times). So, I am hand launching the planes with 100% thrust.

This time, I will fix my ft-flyer and take a video so I can get better help.

I am using dt750 with 1147 prop.

I am taking a small break from work, so I will add additional information shortly.

 

[earthsciteach]

Peddiparth - If you can fly multirotors, you can fly fixed wing. It is far easier. Since you have never flown fixed wing, starting with a scratch or even kit build is an uphill battle.

Consider buying an ARF or RTF or beginners. One you have confidence in flying, then tackle a scratch build or kit. You then will have a better feel for what might be amiss with the plane.

 

[xuzme720]

I don't know, Teach. I've seen some pretty shoddy beginner RTF's that were nowhere near ready to fly! Starting with one of those as your first plane by yourself would have only resulted in disaster and heartache. Since he has already built some of the FT stuff, we know he's got at least some basic construction skills and we know with the proper combination of parts and balance they fly really well.
I'm almost thinking it's possible that balance or even reversed throws might be the issue. Flying multi's is a bit different than flying fixed wings but as Teach has mentioned, planks are generally easier to get the hang of. I'd recommend another go with the Flyer but before you put it in the air, let's take some time and go over all the directions the control surfaces are moving, and pay special attention to where the plane balances! This is very critical for fixed wing so much more so than for multi's.

 

[Scubasky]

When in doubt just buy the eflite apprentice! I was intimidated into getting into fixed wing flying, and it is awesome.

 

[peddiparth]

Throws configuration in the Tx is the one hurdle I have not cleared yet.
By default, I setup the planes control surfaces flat as neutral position. I use the two Popsicle sticks with magnets.

I do check all the control surfaces, balance etc before I start. I learned that lesson from my first crash.

The solution to my problem might be related to the way I launch the planes. I am hand launching with right hand, and holding the Tx with left hand. The planes go out of control before I can take control of the Tx and make adjustments.
I should probably invest in a good set of wheels, maybe I will 3d print a pair to avoid the pool noodle version issue.

I definitely have to switch to a ply-wood firewall as the 3d printed versions break when the motor hits the ground head on.
I will try this approach of sticking to one platform (FT-Flyer) and posting a video of my next crash.

 

[peddiparth]

Nistrum, you might have hit the problem on the head. I will have to switch to wheel based takeoff and landing. Maybe with hand launch, I should try medium throttle and get better at landing first. I tried the buddy launch with similar crash results..
I am using full throttle at launch time.
Some crashes are a full vertical loop, some happen when the panes veer off to the right or left and I have to cut the throttle to avoid props getting busted. They get broken anyway.

 

[peddiparth]

Thanks TacticalEx for the confirmation that simulators are only for hand to eye coordination.
I am guessing that if I get to fly FT Flyer any better, the next one to fly will be my FT Versa.

 

[NewZee]

Throws configuration in the Tx is the one hurdle I have not cleared yet.
By default, I setup the planes control surfaces flat as neutral position. I use the two Popsicle sticks with magnets.

I do check all the control surfaces, balance etc before I start. I learned that lesson from my first crash.

The solution to my problem might be related to the way I launch the planes. I am hand launching with right hand, and holding the Tx with left hand. The planes go out of control before I can take control of the Tx and make adjustments.
I should probably invest in a good set of wheels, maybe I will 3d print a pair to avoid the pool noodle version issue.

I definitely have to switch to a ply-wood firewall as the 3d printed versions break when the motor hits the ground head on.
I will try this approach of sticking to one platform (FT-Flyer) and posting a video of my next crash.

Iv'e had good luck with an underhand toss with my right hand, I use this with my spitfire , grasp over the cockpit and swing your arm up and away!

 

[peddiparth]

Thanks rcspaceflight. I definitely have to fix the throws on the FT Flyer.
What should be the default neutral setting for any plane?
I will definitely review how to setup dual rates on Turnigy 9x before next flight.
I am using the 11x4x7 prop with DT750.

 

[nistrum]

hey wow, everyone woke up.

yeah take off can be a real problem. a lot of factors come into play a lot more and like someone said if you combine a shakey take off with high throws and no Expo that compensation you make on take off can be your downfall. hmm definitely video it and we will take a look. and dont worry, just about everyone started with some kind of disaster.

my original supercub lawn darted on my first launch and bent the engine mount... then my first EDF caught a strong gust of wind and literally disintegrated when it hit a tree. the trick is carry tape and get used to the hot glue gun.
we will help as much as we can this end, I'm sure we will get to the bottom of this...

 

[NewZee]

Hey Peddi, I just realized you are in Tampa, I was on vacation in Indian Rocks Beach in February and stopped in at the Largo Flying Club, for their "fun Fly" event real good group of guys (and girls) I'm sure they could be a big help in getting you off the ground.

http://largoflyingclub.org/

 

[rcspaceflight]

You want the control surfaces to be flat/flush with the stabilizer. There are a few exceptions, but trim can always be added to correct that.

But I think with the FT Flyer you want 15 degree throws each way. I forgot what Bixler recommended. But figuring out how to set up dual rates is a better way to go. You can better fine tune and figure out what throws are best for you. Set it at 50% and 100%. If 50% isn't enough and 100% is too much, then land and change it to 75%. So on.


I also hand launch with my right hand. But I have a Mode 1 Tx so I can keep my thumb on rudder and elevator for the FT Flyer while I throw it. I suggest learning how to launch with your left hand (assuming you have a Mode 2). Hold the Tx up to your face and use your mouth to hit the throttle up to 100% (Or close to it, depending on the power of the plane), then toss with your left hand while having your right thumb on elevator and rudder. You'll have much more control over the plane while it's trying to get a steady flight going.

Or get landing gear. The only time I tried to take off with landing gear didn't work well for me. It was an elevator, rudder, throttle plane and one wheel lifted up while the other was still on the ground. I think it was because I was pussy footing it. (I hope that's not an offensive phrase.) I was also using a dirt and grass field road as a runway. It may have just been the bad plane and bad runway.

::EDIT:: I'm sure you already know, but always launch into the wind. ALWAYS!

 

[peddiparth]

newzee, earthsciteach, xuzme, scubasky, thanks for your responses.

 

[peddiparth]

Next list of items to learn/do:
1. hand launch with left hand (mode 2 tx) with underhand toss.
2. Visit Largo and Tampa flying clubs.
3. dual rates setup.
4. take video for next flight
5. landing gear to take off on the road or concrete sidewalk.