Three Dimensional Flying with a Two Dimensional Plane!

[buzzbomb]

Not unusual for an FT Forum Family post, but I've been inspired. Again. I am going to attempt to design a foamboard profile plane, capable of 3d flight with an F-pack and 3s batt.

Why? Because I want one! I want a super easy, super cheap, 3d capable plane that I don't have to worry about crashing. I want to be able to go from complete fuselage destruction to back in the air with very little time, money or effort. With the profile design, it seems like the simple, laminated fuse would take all the damage and will be easily repaired or replaced. The solid, fold-over wing will simply tear through the fuse in a crash, and likely take little damage.

For simplicity of design, I'm considering using the FT 3d wing and tail. A profile fuselage that is simply cut out and laminated three sheets thick. I've got to work out how to mount EVERYTHING to the fuse. I think I can do that.

Carbon rods are still exotic in my book. I know you can buy arrows and cut them up and all that. I'm thinking just some wooden dowels I can get from Walmart for a buck and a half embedded between the three fuse layers for strength. Maybe even one cut into the center and then the two sides laminated over it. It's a work in progress.

I'll be working on this project in between other projects and life in general. It may not get much love all of the time. It's something I want to see to fruition, though. Besides. @SquirrelTail has agreed to help! He may be young, but that kid KNOWS 3d!

 

[OliverW]

Not unusual for an FT Forum Family post, but I've been inspired. Again. I am going to attempt to design a foamboard profile plane, capable of 3d flight with an F-pack and 3s batt.

Why? Because I want one! I want a super easy, super cheap, 3d capable plane that I don't have to worry about crashing. I want to be able to go from complete fuselage destruction to back in the air with very little time, money or effort. With the profile design, it seems like the simple, laminated fuse would take all the damage and will be easily repaired or replaced. The solid, fold-over wing will simply tear through the fuse in a crash, and likely take little damage.

For simplicity of design, I'm considering using the FT 3d wing and tail. A profile fuselage that is simply cut out and laminated three sheets thick. I've got to work out how to mount EVERYTHING to the fuse. I think I can do that.

Carbon rods are still exotic in my book. I know you can buy arrows and cut them up and all that. I'm thinking just some wooden dowels I can get from Walmart for a buck and a half embedded between the three fuse layers for strength. Maybe even one cut into the center and then the two sides laminated over it. It's a work in progress.

I'll be working on this project in between other projects and life in general. It may not get much love all of the time. It's something I want to see to fruition, though. Besides. @Grifflyer has agreed to help! He may be young, but that kid KNOWS 3d!

Alright!!! I would actually recommend scaling the ft 3d wings down 15-25% because that is a lot of wing for a 2204!! But I think this is gonna be awesome and a fun plane that I can toss around at local parks and fields ! And thanks for the shout out!

 

[buzzbomb]

Alright!!! I would actually recommend scaling the ft 3d wings down 15-25% because that is a lot of wing for a 2204!! But I think this is gonna be awesome and a fun plane that I can toss around at local parks and fields ! And thanks for the shout out!

The shout out is nothing you haven't earned! That's not grease. Just simple truth. Your experience flying 3d is going to be invaluable to me on this project. You've already proven it.

My first task is going to be to take the FT3D wing and drop it to 75% while maintaining the foamboard-width cuts and bevels. It's not difficult for me to do in Inkscape, just time consuming.

This kind of project is good for me. On the nights when I'm too worn to actually build, I can still sit at my computer and do stuff. That's why I'm all over the darn forum. I can sit and design just as easily. I'm really looking forward to both our maiden videos of a plane that has yet to be designed! Isn't that exciting!

 

[Headbang]

EDIT:Added Nov 21, 2019

Here is the link to the post with the latest:
HB Easy AF Edge 540

----------------------------

So for my 2 cents...

Profile plane is a great idea!
As for size, smaller is wayyyyyyyyyy harder to fly 3d. Smaller is more squirly, it reacts quicker and due to size you end up flying lower which reduces ability to get out of trouble. I would stick to at least a 48" wing span. The edge wing is awesome! Easy to build, flies great! Buddy built a slow boat with an ft edge wing, it was an amazing 3d bird. For a fuselage think a tall profile to give lots of fuselage side wall for knife edges. Make the fuselage at least as long as the wing. Keep the wing and stab as close to the motor center line as possible. Control surfaces should have 60deg throw and setup with huge expo. I love the edge, but the build is a little too long and pretty on the fuse for learning, the nose is too weak as well. Profile solution works well, I have seen someone take the left over wing of a 85" yak out of the garbage at the field and build a profile fuse for it out of plywood. Worked great!
Just 2 cents from a so so 3d pilot.

 

[OliverW]

The shout out is nothing you haven't earned! That's not grease. Just simple truth. Your experience flying 3d is going to be invaluable to me on this project. You've already proven it.

My first task is going to be to take the FT3D wing and drop it to 75% while maintaining the foamboard-width cuts and bevels. It's not difficult for me to do in Inkscape, just time consuming.

This kind of project is good for me. On the nights when I'm too worn to actually build, I can still sit at my computer and do stuff. That's why I'm all over the darn forum. I can sit and design just as easily. I'm really looking forward to both our maiden videos of a plane that has yet to be designed! Isn't that exciting!

Thank you very much! It will be a fun project for sure! I imagine with little work it will be flying like a dream!

 

[OliverW]

So for my 2 cents...

Profile plane is a great idea!
As for size, smaller is wayyyyyyyyyy harder to fly 3d. Smaller is more squirly, it reacts quicker and due to size you end up flying lower which reduces ability to get out of trouble. I would stick to at least a 48" wing span. The edge wing is awesome! Easy to build, flies great! Buddy built a slow boat with an ft edge wing, it was an amazing 3d bird. For a fuselage think a tall profile to give lots of fuselage side wall for knife edges. Make the fuselage at least as long as the wing. Keep the wing and stab as close to the motor center line as possible. Control surfaces should have 60deg throw and setup with huge expo. I love the edge, but the build is a little too long and pretty on the fuse for learning, the nose is too weak as well. Profile solution works well, I have seen someone take the left over wing of a 85" yak out of the garbage at the field and build a profile fuse for it out of plywood. Worked great!
Just 2 cents from a so so 3d pilot.

Not meaning to argue or anything, I have found that the profile foamies only perform really well when lightly loaded. I flew supatims multiplex extra and it flew super smooth and precise because of the light weight.

 

[Headbang]

Not meaning to argue or anything, I have found that the profile foamies only perform really well when lightly loaded. I flew supatims multiplex extra and it flew super smooth and precise because of the light weight.

Totally agree! I have many many 3d planes in all sizes. Best airframe I own is a 85" aj ars 300. I have other 4ft airframes that act as I said. Other 4ft airframes that are amazing (super light carbon fiber stick frames) Statement stands that bigger is better for 3d. Lighter is better and even lighter is even better! But too small is an issue. Only reason those eflite umx 3d birds work is due to the as3x. I tried to fly one without and all I could do was chase it around the sky in a constant effort to avoid the ground. More important part of my post was the length of the fuse, do not want another baby blender lol

 

[Corbarrad]

I've been thinking of building a small profile 3d plane myself... (Yeah, I know, Corbo's always making plans, not planes)
I wanted to try a KFM4 airfoil, 25 inch-ish span, with either an A or an F pack, fuselage would be just 3 foam layers, with the middle layer mostly hollow.
I've been concepting a removable wing and horizontal stab so the plane could be laid flat and fit your average backpack or at least a carryon...

Currently occupies slot number 3 on my to-design-and-build list, right after The FTFC Electra and the foamboard DC-3 and just before the Lifting Body Rocket Plane, so be on the lookout for it in 2031 or so.

 

[OliverW]

Totally agree! I have many many 3d planes in all sizes. Best airframe I own is a 85" aj ars 300. I have other 4ft airframes that act as I said. Other 4ft airframes that are amazing (super light carbon fiber stick frames) Statement stands that bigger is better for 3d. Lighter is better and even lighter is even better! But too small is an issue. Only reason those eflite umx 3d birds work is due to the as3x. I tried to fly one without and all I could do was chase it around the sky in a constant effort to avoid the ground. More important part of my post was the length of the fuse, do not want another baby blender lol

We have a skywing 91" ars that is an absolute beast. Now back on topic...

 

[buzzbomb]

So for my 2 cents...

Profile plane is a great idea!
As for size, smaller is wayyyyyyyyyy harder to fly 3d. Smaller is more squirly, it reacts quicker and due to size you end up flying lower which reduces ability to get out of trouble. I would stick to at least a 48" wing span. The edge wing is awesome! Easy to build, flies great! Buddy built a slow boat with an ft edge wing, it was an amazing 3d bird. For a fuselage think a tall profile to give lots of fuselage side wall for knife edges. Make the fuselage at least as long as the wing. Keep the wing and stab as close to the motor center line as possible. Control surfaces should have 60deg throw and setup with huge expo. I love the edge, but the build is a little too long and pretty on the fuse for learning, the nose is too weak as well. Profile solution works well, I have seen someone take the left over wing of a 85" yak out of the garbage at the field and build a profile fuse for it out of plywood. Worked great!
Just 2 cents from a so so 3d pilot.

You've nailed the conundrum on the head. Good 3d flying takes a correctly weighted plane with the right lift surfaces and a powertrain that can handle hanging off the prop.

That's all well and good. I've built the FT Edge, and it is superb. The problems I have with it are two-fold. One: I can't seem to power it sufficiently. Two: I'm afraid to crash it! I just set it down, nice and soft in heavy grass and the powerpod came loose. Major surgery to cut the nose apart, just to glue it back in. Replacing that fuselage would be a nightmare.

I'm attempting to design a 3d capable plane that could be used as a trainer. Everything required to fly an F-pack plane is cheap. I figure if I can work this out, then even though it's not the best 3d flyer on the planet, more pilots might be able to get into 3d flying because the crashing is less painful. Therefore we (meaning I ) can just go out there and practice the skills and crash and burn without remorse.

I figure that once we can 3d fly the plane I'm envisioning? Stepping up to the Edge will just more of the same, but better.

 

[OliverW]

You've nailed the conundrum on the head. Good 3d flying takes a correctly weighted plane with the right lift surfaces and a powertrain that can handle hanging off the prop.

That's all well and good. I've built the FT Edge, and it is superb. The problems I have with it are two-fold. One: I can't seem to power it sufficiently. Two: I'm afraid to crash it! I just set it down, nice and soft in heavy grass and the powerpod came loose. Major surgery to cut the nose apart, just to glue it back in. Replacing that fuselage would be a nightmare.

I'm attempting to design a 3d capable plane that could be used as a trainer. Everything required to fly an F-pack plane is cheap. I figure if I can work this out, then even though it's not the best 3d flyer on the planet, more pilots might be able to get into 3d flying because the crashing is less painful. Therefore we (meaning I ) can just go out there and practice the skills and crash and burn without remorse.

I figure that once we can 3d fly the plane I'm envisioning? Stepping up to the Edge will just more of the same, but better.

You hit the nail on the head! That is the exact point of these foamies!

 

[Headbang]

Well I am on board! Can not wait to see what you come up with so I can build one too! Cause you know I need another 3d plane! Attraction here is durable and quick to build.

 

[bracesport]

I think it was @SquirrelTail that put me onto a simple 3D FB design - I need to dig it out when I find my computer! 😆

 

[The Hangar]

So for my 2 cents...

Profile plane is a great idea!
As for size, smaller is wayyyyyyyyyy harder to fly 3d. Smaller is more squirly, it reacts quicker and due to size you end up flying lower which reduces ability to get out of trouble. I would stick to at least a 48" wing span. The edge wing is awesome! Easy to build, flies great! Buddy built a slow boat with an ft edge wing, it was an amazing 3d bird. For a fuselage think a tall profile to give lots of fuselage side wall for knife edges. Make the fuselage at least as long as the wing. Keep the wing and stab as close to the motor center line as possible. Control surfaces should have 60deg throw and setup with huge expo. I love the edge, but the build is a little too long and pretty on the fuse for learning, the nose is too weak as well. Profile solution works well, I have seen someone take the left over wing of a 85" yak out of the garbage at the field and build a profile fuse for it out of plywood. Worked great!
Just 2 cents from a so so 3d pilot.

Squirly? That’s just what @SquirrelTail wants! 🤣.

Not unusual for an FT Forum Family post, but I've been inspired. Again. I am going to attempt to design a foamboard profile plane, capable of 3d flight with an F-pack and 3s batt.

Why? Because I want one! I want a super easy, super cheap, 3d capable plane that I don't have to worry about crashing. I want to be able to go from complete fuselage destruction to back in the air with very little time, money or effort. With the profile design, it seems like the simple, laminated fuse would take all the damage and will be easily repaired or replaced. The solid, fold-over wing will simply tear through the fuse in a crash, and likely take little damage.

For simplicity of design, I'm considering using the FT 3d wing and tail. A profile fuselage that is simply cut out and laminated three sheets thick. I've got to work out how to mount EVERYTHING to the fuse. I think I can do that.

Carbon rods are still exotic in my book. I know you can buy arrows and cut them up and all that. I'm thinking just some wooden dowels I can get from Walmart for a buck and a half embedded between the three fuse layers for strength. Maybe even one cut into the center and then the two sides laminated over it. It's a work in progress.

I'll be working on this project in between other projects and life in general. It may not get much love all of the time. It's something I want to see to fruition, though. Besides. @SquirrelTail has agreed to help! He may be young, but that kid KNOWS 3d!

As far as the design, I like what @SquirrelTail said about a decrease in size. Please give me plans as soon as you get them cause I’m ALL IN! I want to improve my 3D and the edge is just big and slow on the old c pack with a 3s and 10 inch prop. Absolutely NO vertical - not even hovering. I really want a solid 3D plane that will take the kind of abuse that I will be putting on it before moving to a 4s edge or even crazier planes😄. I have an 1808 2400 kv motor. Will that be good or will I need a 2204?

 

[The Hangar]

You've nailed the conundrum on the head. Good 3d flying takes a correctly weighted plane with the right lift surfaces and a powertrain that can handle hanging off the prop.

That's all well and good. I've built the FT Edge, and it is superb. The problems I have with it are two-fold. One: I can't seem to power it sufficiently. Two: I'm afraid to crash it! I just set it down, nice and soft in heavy grass and the powerpod came loose. Major surgery to cut the nose apart, just to glue it back in. Replacing that fuselage would be a nightmare.

I'm attempting to design a 3d capable plane that could be used as a trainer. Everything required to fly an F-pack plane is cheap. I figure if I can work this out, then even though it's not the best 3d flyer on the planet, more pilots might be able to get into 3d flying because the crashing is less painful. Therefore we (meaning I ) can just go out there and practice the skills and crash and burn without remorse.

I figure that once we can 3d fly the plane I'm envisioning? Stepping up to the Edge will just more of the same, but better.

You’re speaking my language man! Looking forward to crashing with you!😉

 

[buzzbomb]

I've been thinking of building a small profile 3d plane myself... (Yeah, I know, Corbo's always making plans, not planes)
I wanted to try a KFM4 airfoil, 25 inch-ish span, with either an A or an F pack, fuselage would be just 3 foam layers, with the middle layer mostly hollow.
I've been concepting a removable wing and horizontal stab so the plane could be laid flat and fit your average backpack or at least a carryon...

Currently occupies slot number 3 on my to-design-and-build list, right after The FTFC Electra and the foamboard DC-3 and just before the Lifting Body Rocket Plane, so be on the lookout for it in 2031 or so.

LOL. I'm afraid we'll need something sooner than 2031 before we get excited.

 

[buzzbomb]

Squirly? That’s just what @SquirrelTail wants! 🤣.

As far as the design, I like what @SquirrelTail said about a decrease in size. Please give me plans as soon as you get them cause I’m ALL IN! I want to improve my 3D and the edge is just big and slow on the old c pack with a 3s and 10 inch prop. Absolutely NO vertical - it even hovering. I really want a Calle 3D plane that will take the kind of abuse that I will be putting on it before moving to a 4s edge or even crazier planes😄. I have an 1808 2400 kv motor. Will that be good or will I need a 2204?

The F-pack is a 2205, 2300kv. That's my goal. I'm going to order a fresh one, just for this build. The motor is just twenty bucks. I've been impressed by it in every application I've used it in.

 

[OliverW]

I think it was @SquirrelTail that put me onto a simple 3D FB design - I need to dig it out when I find my computer! 😆

Do it!!!!!

 

[L Edge]

Actually, there are a number of factors for designing the 3D plane. First, is the weight which has to be super light which I agree with. Other factors to look at are locating the proper CG in regular and inverted flight, then also looking at the stability during a knife edge. In between, you need to look at different props every time you make major changes. My profile 3D is 32 inch wing and 36 long, has a thin carbon spar and does all the manuvers. I ended up lengthen the distance between wing and elevons, added area under the fuse to better knife edges and balanced the wing widthwise to end up having a small plane to do 3D. Found a prop that really bites the air to climb and causes drag to control a fixed downward speed.
The other thing is to have enough air flow across roll, pitch and yaw axis at all times to insure stability.

Here is a plane that is super to fly, but horrible to do 3D stuff. All it took was a repositioning of the battery further back and deeper inside the fuse, balancing of the wings, and another prop to give it super stability. Here I was learning to back down the airplane. The torque is reduce and starts rotation and trying to keep the plane level and perp to the ground is why it is so hard.

 

[bracesport]

here is the design and the PDF