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UAS Restration Requirement

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thenated0g

Drinker of coffee, Maker of things
Mentor
#21
the way the FCC went about requiring registration is what was illegal not that they cant have you do it. The president does have the authority to do it the way he did. As far as putting your personal info on your stuff i recommend putting it and your cell number. I have had my equipment returned to me a couple times now simply by putting my cell phone on it. Last time was at flitefest when i lost it in the field.
 

sprzout

Knower of useless information
Mentor
#22
who said hes screwing the internet? hes helping our president to make the internet great again with more freedom and your saying hes looking for more pork money? i dont get you. hes trying to make it better for us so that we can get more internet. i only get internet from my night job now because its to expensive at home and the cloosest free wifi at home is just to slow and sometimes i cant connect to it.
Stop. We don't need to go there. I understand the UAS restoration is something you might feel passionate about, but throwing shade on one group or another is just going to make this REALLY ugly, REALLY fast. I don't want these forums to get ugly like Facebook is as of late.
 
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sprzout

Knower of useless information
Mentor
#23
the way the FCC went about requiring registration is what was illegal not that they cant have you do it. The president does have the authority to do it the way he did. As far as putting your personal info on your stuff i recommend putting it and your cell number. I have had my equipment returned to me a couple times now simply by putting my cell phone on it. Last time was at flitefest when i lost it in the field.
Our club has requested that we put our AMA number, name, and phone number on our stuff for that reason. Of course, we have a big area we call "The Jungle" just down and behind our runway, and planes get eaten by The Jungle quite often. If you go down there looking for your plane, it's likely you might come back having found 2 others in the process!!! And everyone's really good about trying to get a plane returned to their original owner...
 

Balu

Moderator
Staff member
Admin
Moderator
#24
Hey Aspie,

who said hes screwing the internet? hes helping our president to make the internet great again with more freedom and your saying hes looking for more pork money? i dont get you. hes trying to make it better for us so that we can get more internet. i only get internet from my night job now because its to expensive at home and the cloosest free wifi at home is just to slow and sometimes i cant connect to it.
Please inform yourself about net neutrality and why removing that will not make the internet have "more freedom", but less. It will get more expensive for everyone, including you and you won't be able to access everything. Net neutrality is the basis that made nowadays internet great. If it gets torn apart, you will have to pay more.

Your ISPs decides secured connections are more important to you, you gotta pay extra. If he doesn't like you watching Youtube, he's crippling your connection for that. Good luck, paying extra fees for every e-mail you receive. Free wifi? Not with the big ISPs who will control everything.

And no, I am not going to fight about these issues with you. They are so important, we shouldn't even have to discuss them. They are the core of everything that is the internet.
 
#25
I bet nobody at the FAA wants to deal with this. I work with the FAA on a daily basis and I can tell you that it takes about 2 months to get a real airplane registered. They are that far behind. They don't have the resources to police a hobby. I don't think it will have any practical effect on anything. It won't stop any accidents, nobody will be prosecuted (maybe some flagrant violations will) and I suspect the 5 bucks won't cover their cost to administer this thing. It's just one of those political things that happens from time to time.

My opinion is that this has all come about because people simply don't like drones. They sound funny. They look mean. They move weird. They look a little like something from the Terminator. Nobody cared when it was just airplanes or even helicopters.
 

rfd

AMA 51668
#26
it will always Always ALWAYS boil down to gov't power and money, they go hand-in-hand, and we're the only ones allowing it all to happen.

my club requires an AMA and FAA number on all aircraft - so i'm happy to sharpie some kinda numbers on all my aircraft. ;)
 

Geeto67

Posting Elsewhere
#27
I'm just going to outright say it: the Registration requirement is not the law of the land for outdoor flying. For the people who are not going to comply, bragging about not complying on the internet on a public forum is probably one of the lesser intelligent things to do in this situation. What does law enforcement call your public statements on the internet? evidence.


Our club has requested that we put our AMA number, name, and phone number on our stuff for that reason. Of course, we have a big area we call "The Jungle" just down and behind our runway, and planes get eaten by The Jungle quite often. If you go down there looking for your plane, it's likely you might come back having found 2 others in the process!!! And everyone's really good about trying to get a plane returned to their original owner...
Back in the 1990's my father was clearing some brush from his property on the end of long island. He built his house on previously undeveloped land in 1989. In a one acre section mostly occupied by thorn bushes he found two different cox baby bee engines and some wire and rotted rubber landing gear. Before he bought the land it had been part of a large ranch and the owner used to do free flight in the 50's/60's. I am guessing these were what was left of planes he didn't get back. Last I checked (august 2016) they were still in a box in Dad's basement. Other things he found were a few old deer skulls, 3 barb wire fence posts with wire still attached, and a front left fender for a nash rambler.

To put this in perspective the entire area is now developed houses, and when I bought my first ultra micro in 2011, a parkzone p51, I took it out to his house while on vacation (It's a beach house with a pool) and flew the plane on the lawn in front of the house - the neighbors came by and asked me a few questions. They hadn't seen a small RC airplane before (all they knew were big old smoky gas models) and wanted to make sure I wasn't filming their property.

in the last 70 years we basically went from releasing gas airplanes into the wild to being very protective of our airspace and privacy. It isn't drones or hobby copters that people dislike - it's cameras and unfortunately most people think every small RC craft has one. Drones have a PR problem because humans are paranoid and don't trust other humans, so every one is thought to have a camera and most are trying to take pictures of you. It's not reality, but public perception is something the hobby can't ignore or say "well that's their problem".

The population has expanded too - it used to be the high cost of entry kept modeling to small numbers and people didn't really have to worry about interference with full scale aircraft. The number of collisions of full size airplanes with model airplanes could be counted on one hand from 1950 to 2000. But now we have cheap hobby copters, cheap foam airplanes, radios that allow for longer range flights, and more densely populated areas. A lot of inexperienced people are getting into the hobby and making the possibility for incidents a lot more likely. between 2000 and now, the number of reported sightings of hobby aircraft within the 500 feet bubble to call it a "near miss" has grown exponentially, as well as there being several videos on youtube showing actual collisions between models and full size.

With growth and progress come rules, but it doesn't mean the hobby won't still grow. It is just asking people who didn't have any real accountability before to make it easier to be accountable if there is a problem, or a collision, or property damage. AS many have said nobody in LE has an appetite to deal with this, and nobody is making any money off it - the currency politicians are receiving is in feeding into the public fears and false perception: people are scared of flying cameras so they can point and say "see we did something about flying cameras" come election time. It's not a money grab, it's not trampling your "freedom", it's an action that has some merit in theory, but will probably be only marginally effective in application because it's too difficult to actually enforce.
 

rfd

AMA 51668
#28
the real problem for us is the huge proliferation of multirotors, the newbies who try to fly them, and how the public and media perceives them and their actions.
 

sprzout

Knower of useless information
Mentor
#29
the real problem for us is the huge proliferation of multirotors, the newbies who try to fly them, and how the public and media perceives them and their actions.
I think that's the REALLY big problem. Throw a camera on, and people freak out that you're spying.

I hate to say this, but for most people, you're not interesting enough to make me want to "spy" on you. Now, if you want to accuse me of spying with a drone when I wasn't even flying near you, I have to wonder, "What don't you want me to see? Are you doing something seriously illegal out there, like running a meth lab or a chop shop or a human trafficking ring?" Yes, it's Hollywood and me thinking the worst of people, but I don't question stuff like that until someone gives me a reason. LOL

As for the newbies, there are people who want to fly them wherever they want, whenever they want, as high and as far as they possibly can, that are causing the general public to freak out about the drones. It's a lack of education on both parts - general public, for thinking all drones are being used to spy on people, and on the people flying drones who think it's ok to fly anywhere, as far as possible, whenever and wherever they want. Try flying a drone over the White House and see how quickly you have people looking for you - it might be a pretty shot, but I can almost guarantee Secret Service will be wanting to talk to you for violating federal airspace restrictions. :) I would say that a lot of it just seems like common sense, except that the majority of people DON'T have common sense anymore - don't text and drive, if there's no power to your home you aren't going to be able to watch TV, and just because one person says something is true doesn't mean it IS true. But I digress...the grumpy "get offa my lawn!" man is starting to come out in me.
 

Geeto67

Posting Elsewhere
#30
I think that's the REALLY big problem. Throw a camera on, and people freak out that you're spying.

I hate to say this, but for most people, you're not interesting enough to make me want to "spy" on you. Now, if you want to accuse me of spying with a drone when I wasn't even flying near you, I have to wonder, "What don't you want me to see? Are you doing something seriously illegal out there, like running a meth lab or a chop shop or a human trafficking ring?" Yes, it's Hollywood and me thinking the worst of people, but I don't question stuff like that until someone gives me a reason. LOL
Most people are just afraid you are going to see them naked, or picking their nose, or something else embarrassing.

Try flying a drone over the White House and see how quickly you have people looking for you - it might be a pretty shot, but I can almost guarantee Secret Service will be wanting to talk to you for violating federal airspace restrictions.
It's already happened. several times. there is even an dubious video about how to do it "legally".

:) I would say that a lot of it just seems like common sense, except that the majority of people DON'T have common sense anymore - don't text and drive, if there's no power to your home you aren't going to be able to watch TV, and just because one person says something is true doesn't mean it IS true. But I digress...the grumpy "get offa my lawn!" man is starting to come out in me.

That's a little judgy mcjudgington. "Common sense" comes from experience. Some common sense is related to general experiences, but some comes from things that become obvious once you start doing a very specific activity. You can't expect people to have instant all encompassing common sense right out of the gate when it comes to a new activity. So, don't fly it over the white house? yeah that might fall into general common sense, but don't fly it over your neighbor's house? probably not going to even think about that right out of the box - esp if you think of these things as toys and you have a good relationship with your neighbor.

It's kinda shitty to just generally say people don't have common sense anymore.
 

sprzout

Knower of useless information
Mentor
#31
Most people are just afraid you are going to see them naked, or picking their nose, or something else embarrassing.



It's already happened. several times. there is even an dubious video about how to do it "legally".




That's a little judgy mcjudgington. "Common sense" comes from experience. Some common sense is related to general experiences, but some comes from things that become obvious once you start doing a very specific activity. You can't expect people to have instant all encompassing common sense right out of the gate when it comes to a new activity. So, don't fly it over the white house? yeah that might fall into general common sense, but don't fly it over your neighbor's house? probably not going to even think about that right out of the box - esp if you think of these things as toys and you have a good relationship with your neighbor.

It's kinda shitty to just generally say people don't have common sense anymore.
Well, let's apply it a little more specifically to "Don't fly your drone over a crowd of people."

Why not?

If the battery goes south, you've got a falling object with the capability to slice people up. Take a look at YouTube for examples of weddings and festivals where drones have fallen on the crowds and people have been injured. Common sense would say, "Don't do that," and the instructions for just about every drone I've seen say, "Don't fly over people," but people don't read instructions or warnings because they either don't feel it applies to them, they're smarter than the instructions, or they don't want someone to tell them what to do.

That's why we have these issues currently of people doing what they're doing with drones.

If you want to say that we shouldn't expect people to have common sense, then the other side of that is that someone is not stepping in to educate them, be it you, me, the government, whoever - and we get back to the issues of people feeling that the instructions don't apply, that they can't understand them, or that it encroaches on their liberties.
 

rfd

AMA 51668
#32
the point being, there are too many people taking ships of all kinds aloft that have no clue what they're doing. as with the vehicles we drive today that require operator testing, licensing and registration, it's perfectly plausible to see that happen with r/c aircraft. and y'all can thank the idjets who are giving the good pilots a bad name, and a valid reason for the politco's to use that bad name to come with new laws and methods to increase the DC coffers.
 

makattack

Winter is coming
Moderator
Mentor
#33
Isn't that how it goes with all technology that with increased adoption leads to increased conflicts? Regulations come? Generally speaking, it comes in the form of:

* Define operating rules
* Prove competency & knowledge of operating rules
* Get identity for compliance

I'm just trying to generalize things, but it seems everything from getting a drivers license, amateur radio license, pilots license, parachuting, marksmanship, ability to practice medicine, law, accounting, teaching, et al follow this model. I think on a very small scale / during the initial/birth of those activities, it was all "fly by the seat of your pants" sort of stuff until more and more people got involved...

I'm pretty sure the Wright Bros. (and many pilots who immediately came after them) didn't get a private pilots certificate with medical clearance before their first flight, nor have to have their aircraft certified as airworthy :D
 

Geeto67

Posting Elsewhere
#34
Well, let's apply it a little more specifically to "Don't fly your drone over a crowd of people."
Are you saying this is a "common sense" thing? because it isn't. If you look at sum total of the community - the marketing, the home made videos, the commercial uses, etc...it would tell you it's perfectly fine to fly over crowds because people are doing it, and there are videos on youtube, and the commercials selling you the drones show you crowd footage, and it's become part of the general zeitgeist.


Why not?

If the battery goes south, you've got a falling object with the capability to slice people up. Take a look at YouTube for examples of weddings and festivals where drones have fallen on the crowds and people have been injured. Common sense would say, "Don't do that," and the instructions for just about every drone I've seen say, "Don't fly over people,"
You are kind of right in this - there is "common sense" that applies but I don't think you have the right one. The common sense that applies here is that if you are going to fly over crowds, you should take precautions to minimize your risk to others. charge and test your batteries, practice flying, talk to others in your community about safe practices, etc.


but people don't read instructions or warnings because they either don't feel it applies to them, they're smarter than the instructions, or they don't want someone to tell them what to do.
And here is where you make the unfounded assumption and are just crapping on people. Maybe people don't read the instructions or maybe they do - is it unreasonable that they would think flying over a crowd is not something they should do? Well the countless youtube videos, commercial work (like TV shows shot with a drone), heck even the box the copter came in say otherwise with their images. There is a conflicting message - the instructions say no, but the community says "Go for it, look how awesome it is, you'll be a photo hero, it might even get you laid", and there isn't really anything right now to advocate safe practices in between the instructions and the community.

this is where we come in as veterans. We talk to people, we publish self standards publicly about safe operation, we develop preflight plans and socialize them, and we encourage the purchase of insurance. We are the community and it's up to us to be the tip of the spear on safety - if we see someone doing something unsafe, we don't attack them with hostility and tell them they can't do something, we approach them with compassion and try to assist them. We self edit our own videos on youtube to eliminate unsafe behavior, and if we do something complex we publish what precautions we took so others who do what we want to do can follow our lead or even improve upon our safety measures. We lead the conversation and practices by example.


That's why we have these issues currently of people doing what they're doing with drones.
No that's why you think it is, and I think you are wrong and are being unforgiving to new entrants to the hobby. You can call people names and make grand general statements that crap on nameless, faceless people or you can take a more compassionate approach that they just don't have the experience yet and as members of the community they could use some guidance. Think about the guidance you got when you first joined the hobby, and how different it would be if people had the same attitude toward you that you are now saying about a general population of people. I don't think you would have stayed with it.


If you want to say that we shouldn't expect people to have common sense, then the other side of that is that someone is not stepping in to educate them, be it you, me, the government, whoever - and we get back to the issues of people feeling that the instructions don't apply, that they can't understand them, or that it encroaches on their liberties.
That is not what I am saying at all. What I am saying that there is a learning curve and just generally crapping on people for being at the bottom of that curve is counter productive. They should have "common sense" but common sense related to an activity comes from experience and that takes time and community. If you have it and you see someone without it you should share it openly so they have it too. If you want to just say people are stupid and lazy that's why we are here - well then how is that helping? People aren't stupid, they just don't know any better because they haven't done this before.

you can sit back and complain about the problem or how more people are ruining the hobby, or you can be active and an engine for positivity and change. The choice is yours.
 
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sprzout

Knower of useless information
Mentor
#35
Are you saying this is a "common sense" thing? because it isn't. If you look at sum total of the community - the marketing, the home made videos, the commercial uses, etc...it would tell you it's perfectly fine to fly over crowds because people are doing it, and there are videos on youtube, and the commercials selling you the drones show you crowd footage, and it's become part of the general zeitgeist.




You are kind of right in this - there is "common sense" that applies but I don't think you have the right one. The common sense that applies here is that if you are going to fly over crowds, you should take precautions to minimize your risk to others. charge and test your batteries, practice flying, talk to others in your community about safe practices, etc.




And here is where you make the unfounded assumption and are just crapping on people. Maybe people don't read the instructions or maybe they do - is it unreasonable that they would think flying over a crowd is not something they should do? Well the countless youtube videos, commercial work (like TV shows shot with a drone), heck even the box the copter came in say otherwise with their images. There is a conflicting message - the instructions say no, but the community says "Go for it, look how awesome it is, you'll be a photo hero, it might even get you laid", and there isn't really anything right now to advocate safe practices in between the instructions and the community.

this is where we come in as veterans. We talk to people, we publish self standards publicly about safe operation, we develop preflight plans and socialize them, and we encourage the purchase of insurance. We are the community and it's up to us to be the tip of the spear on safety - if we see someone doing something unsafe, we don't attack them with hostility and tell them they can't do something, we approach them with compassion and try to assist them. We self edit our own videos on youtube to eliminate unsafe behavior, and if we do something complex we publish what precautions we took so others who do what we want to do can follow our lead or even improve upon our safety measures. We lead the conversation and practices by example.



No that's why you think it is, and I think you are wrong and are being unforgiving to new entrants to the hobby. You can call people names and make grand general statements that crap on nameless, faceless people or you can take a more compassionate approach that they just don't have the experience yet and as members of the community they could use some guidance. Think about the guidance you got when you first joined the hobby, and how different it would be if people had the same attitude toward you that you are now saying about a general population of people. I don't think you would have stayed with it.




That is not what I am saying at all. What I am saying that there is a learning curve and just generally crapping on people for being at the bottom of that curve is counter productive. They should have "common sense" but common sense related to an activity comes from experience and that takes time and community. If you have it and you see someone without it you should share it openly so they have it too. If you want to just say people are stupid and lazy that's why we are here - well then how is that helping? People aren't stupid, they just don't know any better because they haven't done this before.

you can sit back and complain about the problem or how more people are ruining the hobby, or you can be active and an engine for positivity and change. The choice is yours.
You win. Common sense is not common, it's about education. I'm complaining about how people are ruining the hobby, yet I can't educate them because that's regulation and people don't want to be regulated - hence the opposition to the UAS Registration.

I'm not sure how you want to have these people who don't have training and just go out and buy drones and planes and fly dangerously without knowing any better, how they're supposed to get education.

I'm going to have to walk away from this thread before I start going off and get myself kicked from the forums.
 

makattack

Winter is coming
Moderator
Mentor
#36
I failed at resisting the urge to pipe in, but I do love a good discussion. I don't think anyone should feel worried about being kicked off the forums for disagreements as long as we remain respectful. I find myself somewhere in between. I've seen those long range, high altitude FPV videos and I'm fascinated and intrigued at the technical challenges they overcame. I also think "yikes" while I'm watching them. I'm not sure that's really any different from when I see guys on motorbikes riding down public streets in traffic in "wheelie" mode. I'm glad I'm not near them, but kind of awed at their chutzpah. I know it's dangerous, but I'm not even entirely sure it's illegal. I also think they're negatively affecting the views people may have for other motorcyclists. I also won't lay any claims to particularly good judgement and acts on my own part. Anyway, my point is that no one should feel they need to stop contributing so long as we're civil.
 
#37
With an ultralight - the pilot has some skin in the game because their life is on the line so there isn't a need to add the legal incentive to not fly too close to full scale airplanes or not invade other's privacy.
Ever had an ultralight cut you off when you're on final? I have. I was on about a 2/3 mile final, full split-flaps, engines pulled back for landing and landing gear in the breeze, about 1,000 feet off the deck in 7,000 pounds of cabin-class airplane. With kids on board, no less. Through possible stupidity or more likely total lack of training, I suddenly had this clown in front of me, doing maybe 35 mph. Since my 421 stalls at 87, you can see where I had just a teeny-tiny bit of a problem. Got out of the situation without killing anyone, but I wasn't totally sure I'd be able to for a minute or so. Just cleaning the bird up for go-around requires some precise actions, but I also had to jerk my plane to the side just to avoid smearing a Part 103 dummy all over my radome. It's always taken a fairly radical situation to scare me, but Mr. 103 managed.
 

Geeto67

Posting Elsewhere
#38
You win. Common sense is not common, it's about education. I'm complaining about how people are ruining the hobby, yet I can't educate them because that's regulation and people don't want to be regulated - hence the opposition to the UAS Registration.

I'm not sure how you want to have these people who don't have training and just go out and buy drones and planes and fly dangerously without knowing any better, how they're supposed to get education.

I'm going to have to walk away from this thread before I start going off and get myself kicked from the forums.
I just want people already in the hobby to start looking at the new entrants as an asset and not a liability. There is a parallel thread to this one about the AMA where someone got a sour reception at a club and to me that's the slippery slope of looking at these people who don't know any better as the problem and not the future. If we reject them or crap on them publicly, they will separate from the community and deprive themselves of the education.

We can lead by example in our own practices, we can talk to everyone we see flying about flying and share tips and tricks, we can form clubs that are welcoming. At the end of the day people are responsible for their own actions, but a welcome community can only benefit. We can't stop some government meddling, but government is always reactive, it's very rarely proactive. We can cut down on the incidents the government reacts to through our own individual actions that impact the whole.



Ever had an ultralight cut you off when you're on final? I have. I was on about a 2/3 mile final, full split-flaps, engines pulled back for landing and landing gear in the breeze, about 1,000 feet off the deck in 7,000 pounds of cabin-class airplane. With kids on board, no less. Through possible stupidity or more likely total lack of training, I suddenly had this clown in front of me, doing maybe 35 mph. Since my 421 stalls at 87, you can see where I had just a teeny-tiny bit of a problem. Got out of the situation without killing anyone, but I wasn't totally sure I'd be able to for a minute or so. Just cleaning the bird up for go-around requires some precise actions, but I also had to jerk my plane to the side just to avoid smearing a Part 103 dummy all over my radome. It's always taken a fairly radical situation to scare me, but Mr. 103 managed.
Yes, actually. I am not a full scale pilot but I grew up in a flying family (Dad and I restored a '63 M20C and built a sonerai in our garage) and have about 35 hours in lessons. About 10 years ago we got cut off on short final in the mooney (I was right seat) by two and we were literally on top of them. No radios either. Fortunately they were landing on the grass to the right of the runway, but we were right on top of them and had they gone for the pavement we would have had to go around. but then again we've been cut off in the pattern at the same airport by other planes (most memorable was a cessna 150 that cut it entirely too close, and a 210 that claimed to have us in sight but didn't until he was right next to us on final). Do people make mistakes? constantly. I don't think that is limited to ultralight pilots.

a 421 is a fast bird, and I get it - some ultralight pilots are too in their head about being the great waldo pepper that they forget flying is dangerous and they are often the danger. there were plenty of times when I was a teen hangar rat where dad and I and his buddy charlie would have to jump in the truck to get so and so and his ultralight out of a tree.

But still - notwithstanding how forgetful people can be or how careless, there is still an incentive to be more careful piloting an ultralight that has some life threatening consequences than a drone that often feels like it has none. should Ultralights be registered and insured? yeah I kinda think they should, but for the most part if one crashed through your dining room window, I doubt the pilot is going to run away and not get caught like they would with a drone.
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding faceplant!
Mentor
#39
This is an age old argument. I find as I get older that history tends to repeat itself and if we listen to those who came before us we can avoid some of the pitfalls of the human condition.

To rebuke the idea of a central government that runs everyone's lives, I offer up this tidbit by John Milton (emphasis mine) written 150 years before the American revolution.

"If men within themselves would be governed by reason, and not generally give up their understanding to a double tyranny, of custom from without, and blind affections within; they would discern better what it is to favour and uphold the tyrant of a nation. But being slaves within doors, no wonder that they strive so much to have the public state conformably governed to the inward vicious rule, by which they govern themselves. For indeed none can love freedom heartily, but good men: the rest love not freedom, but license: which never hath more scope, or more indulgence than under tyrants."

We have lost our love of liberty and it isn't going to come back on its own. If we want liberty and justice in our future we need to invest in that future. The AMA is an investment in the past as is registration and government license.

FliteTest is an investment in the future. This is the greatest STEM program in the world. It is free and open to all races, genders, ages and nationalities. To want liberty you have to love liberty. I know of nothing that teaches the balance of liberty and justice as well as flight.

This is why I love flight and flying things and why I think we should teach flight and flying things to children and invest heavily in that future.

Good men love freedom and invest in it. If you want to make a difference, donate a radio or a box of foamies or your time to a school. Help teach a new generation to love liberty and the justice that inevitably balances it.

Anything less is just exercising our license to gripe.
 
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rfd

AMA 51668
#40
hear! hear! sir cranialrectosis! bravo!

i heartily second the motion about donating gear and time to the youth cause. doesn't matter whether done at a club or individual level, either. this is a good way to build self reliability as well as foster a love of things aloft.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ~ liberos vivere, mori libero!
 
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