• This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn more.

UAS Restration Requirement

Status
Not open for further replies.

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
Mentor
#42
I prefer my Tail numbers but you guys banned them from my signature last year when FAA numbers were first required.
 

varg

Build cheap, crash cheap
#43
My opinion is that this has all come about because people simply don't like drones. They sound funny. They look mean. They move weird. They look a little like something from the Terminator. Nobody cared when it was just airplanes or even helicopters.
This is my opinion. It's further complicated by the fact that any rube with a pulse and a paycheck can buy a quad with a camera that practically flies itself at [insert big box store here] and proceed to peep on the neighbors or fly through a sports event, and they do. Back when you couldn't fly something that would hover without dozens of hours of practice and a super-sized wallet, and cameras weren't the size of a grape, this couldn't happen, so it didn't. In the intermediate period before stuff like the Phantom series existed a determined delinquent could construct a fpv quad to do ill advised stuff with but there was still a barrier to entry.
 
#44
Do people make mistakes? constantly. I don't think that is limited to ultralight pilots. a 421 is a fast bird, and I get it - some ultralight pilots are too in their head about being the great waldo pepper that they forget flying is dangerous and they are often the danger. there were plenty of times when I was a teen hangar rat where dad and I and his buddy charlie would have to jump in the truck to get so and so and his ultralight out of a tree.

But still - notwithstanding how forgetful people can be or how careless, there is still an incentive to be more careful piloting an ultralight that has some life threatening consequences than a drone that often feels like it has none. should Ultralights be registered and insured? yeah I kinda think they should, but for the most part if one crashed through your dining room window, I doubt the pilot is going to run away and not get caught like they would with a drone.
All you say is right, IMO. I think what has been missed in this thread regarding the difference between ultralight pilots and certified pilots is the training. Ultralight pilots have, in too many cases, zero hours of training. I was lucky on that point in that the US Air Force trained me, and that was an intense time in my life. Before I was released into operational flying, I had the equivalent of the highest rating a civilian pilot can attain. All Air Force pilots do. The training makes a world of difference.

And I wonder how many people realize that even a Tiny Whoop is capable of bringing down a Boeing 747. Admittedly, bringing one down would be a worst case scenario, but let that little drone get sucked into a jet intake and the jet engine is almost certainly going to be destroyed or at least damaged beyond use in that flight. Let any of those compressor blades get thrown just right and it could cut through a fuel cell and create an explosion. Unlikely, yes. Impossible, no.

Years ago, I took a goose or some bird about that size through one of the TF-30 engines of my plane. The engine was turned into junk metal in a matter of seconds. As it happens, the F-111 had two engines so I was able to cripple on to the nearest Air Force base. No one was injured, but a multi-million dollar engine was destroyed. A Tiny Whoop or any other model could have done the same thing. I'm not crazy about registration and in fact wrote AOPA a letter they could use in trying to stop the legislation, for all the good that did. The point of all my words is that model aircraft can pose a danger to real airplanes, and R/C pilots should be aware of that fact.

Ray
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
Mentor
#45
Not to start an argument but I gotta throw a flag on this play mate.. A tiny whoop taking down a full scale aircraft.. REALLY... come on think that out mate. AS a pilot I am sure you are more then familiar with the aerodynamics and the air flow patterns around your air craft. In MOST scenarios that draft around the entire plane is strong enough to wash any but the heaviest drones around the aircraft never allowing it to come in contact at all.

If a drone were to get sucked into an engine yes there is a possibility that it could damage an engine and be the cause of other issues like an internal fire or something. But come on.. They shoot 30+ lb frozen turkeys at 100 + mph into running jet engines as a test (it destroyed the engine btw but that was the upper end it took to do so. Cant seem to find that particular video from the 90s atm though). They force thousands of gallons of water per minute thru a running engine. A tiny whoop would not even in most cases gonna do anything at all even when that tiny lipo explodes.

This whole thing about drones taking down air planes is getting out of hand. Could it happen yes I am sure it could. In fact I know if it were my quad that was to hit a plane Bills Law would dictate that I be the only person in history to ever have done it. Anyway all these guys flying at 3 to 400 mph freaking out they saw a drone are full of crap. Thats like seeing a quarter on the side of the road at 65 mph... Get back to reality here PLEASE. If you are worried how much damage your drone could do to an airplane smash it full speed into the side of your car. See where the damage is. Then cut that by a few thousand percent to cover the probability of it even getting anywhere near a moving plane let alone contacting it.

How many larger bird strikes on full scale air planes happen each year and none have brought a plane down that I know of.. Damaged yes significant at times but never brought down a plane in this day and age..

This is just a quick search on the testing. There are more and better rigorous testing vids out if anyone needs to practice their google fu skills.

 

rfd

AMA 51668
#46
to put things in perspective, the FAA UAS requirement starts with a .55lb (yes, a tad over a half pound) aircraft, so tiny whoops and tons of toy multi rotors are fully exempt, and are not in the equation.

IMHO, this has everything to do with gov't creating another citizen revenue stream and nothing realistic to do with full size aircraft or citizen safety.

this is why we here in the USA need more gov't control of everything we do, right? i mean, we do need gov't protection from the stupid/ignorant side of our population. you know, the newbie ones with the RTF toy aircraft that might get in one flight with an unhappy landing in a not-so-good location.
 
#47
Not to start an argument but I gotta throw a flag on this play mate.. A tiny whoop taking down a full scale aircraft.. REALLY... come on think that out mate. AS a pilot I am sure you are more then familiar with the aerodynamics and the air flow patterns around your air craft. In MOST scenarios that draft around the entire plane is strong enough to wash any but the heaviest drones around the aircraft never allowing it to come in contact at all.
When I was a little kid, World War II began and I can remember people saying, “It must be true, I read it in the newspaper.” Then they began to understand that newspapers were written by people. Just people. By the time I was about 10 years old, television began to proliferate and people started saying, “It must be true, I saw it on TV.” Turned out that what came over the airwaves was also written by people. Just people. Then along came the Internet and people said, “It must be true, I saw it on the Internet”, or “I saw it on YouTube.” You’ll forgive me if I think, gosh, isn’t that written by people? Just people?
 

rfd

AMA 51668
#48
aw c'mon, ray - you mean my mama was wrong about the tooth fairy and santy claus? geez, another bubble burst. LOL!

i came along a tad later than you, born in san antonio, texas, as the war ended, while my parents were both stationed at the randolph army air field where dad was a crew chief on at6 texans, mom was a WAC, they lived in one of those tin quonset huts right on the field. the army wanted his engine expertise more than flying ability, so they told him he wasn't "fit" for flying. people talk. just people. it wasn't until much after the war that he got his private pilot license.
 

Bricks

Well-known member
#49
In my opinion this is one of those people complaining about drones and some I do not blame them when watching many videos on YouTube you see people walking there dog or just walking thru the park and this screaming quad comes flying over or near them. They are there to enjoy some quiet and peace. So to help appease the people FAA can say see we are trying to do something about the situation.
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
Mentor
#50
When I was a little kid, World War II began and I can remember people saying, “It must be true, I read it in the newspaper.” Then they began to understand that newspapers were written by people. Just people. By the time I was about 10 years old, television began to proliferate and people started saying, “It must be true, I saw it on TV.” Turned out that what came over the airwaves was also written by people. Just people. Then along came the Internet and people said, “It must be true, I saw it on the Internet”, or “I saw it on YouTube.” You’ll forgive me if I think, gosh, isn’t that written by people? Just people?
Forgive me but I have ZERO clue what your point is with this statement mate, in regards to what I had said anyways. Sorry but I am a tad slow atm with little sleep and being a third day of debilitating headaches making me hide from the light.

@Bricks

If the F.A.A. or the government as a whole really gave a crap about the preaching they are doing about safety they would be using the money extorted from the hobby to set aside areas where we CAN fly. They are collecting the money with ZERO disclosure what it is being used for. They simply just keep stacking rules to set the hobby up for more extortionism.

I mean seriously.. what did all that money last year they collected get used for? The F.A.A. Christmas party? A going away gift for the Obama's.


To be quite honest I am more worried about some nutbag with an aerosol can walking down the streets of a crowded city releasing a bio or chemical agent then I am anything RC related doing anything terroristic. Anyone remember their NBC training from boot camp?
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding faceplant!
Mentor
#51
History is clear. The purpose of registration is criminalization and confiscation.

The method is always fear of what might happen if liberty is not restricted by the state.


A society is a group of people who come together freely to be governed by a similar set of rules. The rules we play by have worked for 100 years. The FAA is dictating new sets of arbitrary and capricious rules in an effort to destroy our society of pilots by dividing us into different groups based on what we fly. They lie by promising everything to everyone then they divide people into groups and slowly take away everything they promised to deliver from everyone but themselves.

The FAA tells us that this will make things better and safer while telling others that we are dangerous and they will protect innocent children from us.

There is no dealing with the FAA. They have already decided that we are the problem and they are the cure. All that they need to do now is to convince Congress. To do that they make the argument that we hobbiests make the skies dangerous for children and government needs to do 'something'.

I see a lot of fear in this thread coming from people who think they can save the part of the hobby they love by joining the side of the FAA. That's a deal with the Devil.

Other pilots are not the enemy here. Fear of other 'just people' pilots is and the FAA is using that to divide and conquer.

The defense and cure for fear is education.

Donate a STEM kit to your local school today. Make our society stronger by joining together with pilots who fly different things and teach a new generation to love flight, liberty and justice for all.

It is one thing for the FAA to take down a dangerous club of drone pilots. It's quite another for them to take down a school and teachers teaching STEM.

Merry Christmas! :)
 
Last edited:
#52
Forgive me but I have ZERO clue what your point is with this statement mate, in regards to what I had said anyways.
Just means that simply because something gets published, be it to newspapers, television or YouTube, it is not necessarily true. Even seeing things with your own eyes can sometimes be deceiving. With the advent of Photoshop and all the following, similar software, trusting that a picture or video is true and accurate may be less than wise.

Ray
 

Geeto67

Posting Elsewhere
#53
Forgive me but I have ZERO clue what your point is with this statement mate, in regards to what I had said anyways. Sorry but I am a tad slow atm with little sleep and being a third day of debilitating headaches making me hide from the light.
What Ray is really saying is that you are full of bull puckey. Fortunately for you and everyone else here, he's a gentleman aviator so he found the politest way to infer it without starting some sort of internet fight.

Unfortunately I am more direct and not as gentle. From reading your comments in this thread it is clear you really haven't spent a lot of time (or any) around full size aircraft. This nonsense you are talking about with airflow patterns? yeah they are there but they have almost no effect to anything heavier than a piece of paper. If they did, bird strikes wouldn't be as common as they are. If a common starling (which weighs 2.6oz) can take down a Lockheed L-188 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_375) then it is plausible (however unlikely) that a small quad copter could do similar damage. Ever been inside an airplane and experienced a bird strike? I have many times in something as small as a cub to something as big as a 727. It's terrifying (and sometimes messy) even if it isn't lethal. I haven't had the pleasure of a drone strike in a small airplane but I have to imagine it's far worse. Actually I don't have to imagine the FAA has already researched it: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/faa-research-finds-drones-more-damaging-than-birds/

Remember, Birds don't carry around tiny explosives inside them called batteries. Go watch a few of those chuckleheads on youtube who hit Lipos with a stick and make them explode if you don't fully understand how dangerous the tiny batteries we play with are.

The other thing you are forgetting is that any engine producing thrust is creating an equal vacuum in front of it. It has an effect on the airflow around an airplane. In a prop plane the suction doesn't extend as far out, but a turbine? yeah things get sucked in there all the time and not just on the ground.

If the F.A.A. or the government as a whole really gave a crap about the preaching they are doing about safety they would be using the money extorted from the hobby to set aside areas where we CAN fly. They are collecting the money with ZERO disclosure what it is being used for. They simply just keep stacking rules to set the hobby up for more extortionism.

I mean seriously.. what did all that money last year they collected get used for? The F.A.A. Christmas party? A going away gift for the Obama's.
I work for a large multinational corporation in their regulatory compliance division, so that means my job is to know how government regulations work and how large corporate entities can comply. So I say this from my professional opinion and my 2 decades in the legal and regulatory industry, you have no idea what you are talking about or how your government works.

That $5 fee? it's the same fee that any aircraft pays to for registration. It isn't nearly enough to pay for the administration staff that it takes to process an maintain that registration system. The government makes up the difference in their budget. There isn't some "Slush fund" sitting around with aircraft registration fees sitting in it, it pays for what they already do so they have to use less of the overall tax payer collected funds.

you want to know where that money went? it's actually a matter of public record because the FAA's budget is a public document. Rather than sit there and cast stones like the government is "extorting" you, why don't you take some time and learn how to read a federal budget:
https://www.faa.gov/about/budget/
A word of caution - there isn't going to be a single line item for UAS registration budget, you are going to have to know some basic accounting techniques and basic math to figure it out, but there is a nice writeup of their plan for UAS in the 2016 budget estimates that includes some projected costs.

I will note that your personal attitude toward government spending is something I have seen before and is not uncommon among veterans. I can say that the whole of the government does not operate like the military when it comes to budgets and spending, there is a lot of waste that is tolerated in defense of this country that is not tolerated anywhere else. Even in the military, unless you have worked logistics there are a lot of hidden costs and considerations your average grunt isn't going to see or know about. And that is before you add in how classified information complicates things.

you want to know where that collected registration fee went? they spent it on the salaries, and paperwork, and IT for the registration list.

And we haven't even talked about how it isn't the FAA's job to "set aside" a space designated for UAS operation.

To be quite honest I am more worried about some nutbag with an aerosol can walking down the streets of a crowded city releasing a bio or chemical agent then I am anything RC related doing anything terroristic. Anyone remember their NBC training from boot camp?
I am more worried about people who think false equivalence is an acceptable practice in discussing the government.

This isn't about stopping terrorism any more that license plates on your car is about stopping terrorisim. This is about managing risk. When there were a few operators and the high cost of the tech kept people out, the FAA didn't need to concern itself with our hobby at all because the number of incidents were extremely low. Now that the costs have come down and the number of people operating RC aircraft of all kinds has grown exponentially the first step is to institute an identification system. Same as done with literally every other vehicle that has moved across this earth (including biological, or did you think Horse brands were for fun?). If you are operating within the boundaries of the law - the registration number has no impact on your life whatsoever. If however, your drone collides with an airplane because you were somewhere you shouldn't have been? well at least now it is easier to identify you and investigate. If you happen to crash through a window of a house, you can't just jump in a car and get away clean. The FAA has one concern - protecting the full scale aircraft that are in the air, and now if you are irresponsible (as many operators are) in that regard it is slightly easier for them to find you and hold you accountable. It doesn't solve all problems in all circumstances, but it solves some.

Something I will add here: in the old days it used to be a requirement of most AMA clubs that you had to have your name and address written on the aircraft somewhere. Many balsa builders used to put tags in the fuselage that you could see if the wing was removed. The reasons for this were many:
- if the plane flew away there was a good chance you could get it back
- if the plane did damage to private property, the owner's insurance under the AMA could be held accountable rather than the local flying field's policy (and in the case of multiple fields, it could at least hold the correct field's policy depending on the circumstances).

If you are flying any type of aircraft, it is just good common sense and responsible behavior to have your name and contact info somewhere on the aircraft...unless you are doing something illegal in the first place...
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding faceplant!
Mentor
#54
Interesting take Geeto67. Well stated.

But. I suggest there is a missing component.

I put my name and number on my craft. I always have.

What is the FAA's justification for prosecuting someone who is not registered (drone registrations register the pilot not the craft) but who is flying safely and sanely over their own property and has their name and number on their craft?

Or do you think they won't?
 

PsyBorg

Wake up! Time to fly!
Mentor
#55
Feel better now?

Like you I too am a more direct person AND grumpier in my old age. I play nice here because it is the way of this forum. Since you have puffed up and directly addressed me I shall reply. Directly. We shall go line by line but I won't snip quotes as I want to address your whole speech so we shall go down in order.

I have spent a fair amount of time in and around full scale aircraft. I have been in a P-3 Orion in a hail storm that took out the nose of the plane. The wings were flexing
enough you would see the out board engine disappear and reappear as it flapped like a bird looking out the tiny port windows. I will agree with you and say that was terrifying. I have done fod walk downs on the USS Nimitz looking for anything down to and including small piece of non skid deck covering that has flaked off and could cause damage. I have seen where a guy who lost a hand to an engine after getting pulled into an A7 intake and the only thing that saved him was the ground crew near him being able to grab hold long enough for the pilot to power down right before a cat launch. I have moved live ordnance around live aircraft so I know the hazards that can happen around them. Unrelated to aviation I have seen a man decapitated when someone ignored lock out procedures during maintenance on weapons elevators. I am not as clueless as you imagine when it comes to REAL things.

As for what you do for a living first I feel bad for you dealing with that environment all the time. My condolences. But that also tells me you having spent so much time in that are a professional manipulator thus making a lot of your opinion even less valid to me in the grand scheme of things. Since you toss around the cost of the Registry lets break it down. First its a data base a simple list of who and where. This could viably be done by a monkey on google spreadsheets. But there is security involved and the monkey may talk according to government theory. So the cost of a programmer to design a secure website to collect simple form information and AUTOMATICALLY is / was near impossible for our government to pull off in a timely manor. This is THE COMPUTER AGE mate.. there is none of the bureaucratic red tape necessary to do things and all the scumbags running this country simply add zeros and move that funny little dot to ensure their pockets get lined as well as having a little something on the side for all those Super Secret projects no one in their right mind would willingly pay for get funded. If it was done right its a few hours work on a computer, the electric bill to run said computer and
some monthly computer maintenance. It doesn't cost a bajillion dollars to do. That only happens when the information collected needs to be distributed to places and people NOT involved with the reasoning given for said data base. After all its just a list of people who fly remote controlled toys right.....

Managing terrorism... It IS about it. Its about that, its about fear mongering, its about manipulating weak minded people into thinking this is actually best for them. In the 100 plus year history there has NEVER been a need for anything but the hobby self policing the people in it thru teaching proper safety, common courtesy, and passing on the history of fun and design of model aircraft. It wasn't until Government and Big Business decided that they could use OUR hobby as a tool of war. Then they found out how simple it all is and panicked that the normal thinking people they have been oppressing with their toys could in fact easily turn it back on them. There is no need for the hobby to be regulated ever right up until that point they panicked.

In the old days it was a requirement for people and still is to put their name on their aircraft in the case of a lost model. Not so they could get their stuff back (but that is a benefit) but so if any damage were caused the owner could be responsible and correct the damages in an honorable way). LONG before insurances were forced on everyone. Normal people in our hobby do not (no matter how much our twisted government officials think) have the desire to do harm with our hobby. We want to get together in a safe place to be with friends to fly and show off our gear and our skills and some of us like me and race quads now want to compete in a race. We could give two craps less about full scale planes. If one happens to be flying by most of us stop what we do and watch it maybe even dreaming man Id LOVE to be up there today.

Now lets step into reality and probability shall we. Can drones take down a plane.. yeah in the perfect storm scenario they could. Lets start with your battery reference. Yes batteries explode. Usually ONLY under over charged situations. In all other cases they merely burn IF they have enough power in them to actually ignite. So lets talk reality... Should a lipo somehow get into a jet engine 99% chance it is only going to burn and not explode because a good portion of its power has already been expended getting to a flying planes running engine. Engines have fires all the time and the fire suppression equipment in them is more then capable to handle that. Unless catastrophic damage occurs its merely a normal day at the office for a pilot. Oh btw there are not many single engine passenger planes that I am aware of so no the plane does not fall from the sky in this case.

Now lets talk about getting to an airplane to intentionally attack it. DJI phantoms most common craft perpetrating said attacks or incursions on full scale planes as well as top offender for rules breaking over all.. Top speed 30 mph ish? Jet aircraft What ~140 mph just to stay in the air? Lets be VERY forgiving and say 80 mph to lump in lesser powered craft as well. Last I knew 30 mph is FAR slower the 80 so Drones are NOT going to chase down a plane to take it out of the air. Now me being an avid FPV pilot I pride myself on being able to make my drone fit thru a small area at speeds over 80 mph. So that gives me the best chance to go after an aircraft. Ill even use my best quad and say I can hit 100 mph for this scenario.

I plan to take down an aircraft.. My BEST place to do so is on approach where I KNOW where an craft will be and exactly what direction it is going. Here are my options... I stand off unseen where I can fly in low and get into position. (power expended to get there) I see my target and start my run to meet it before it gets to low to be effective in my attack. (MORE power expended) I get in the flight path and start my run (the whole time expending power) I head off towards the aircraft looking for the best place to hit it.. an Engine. I will have to be within say 100 meters to even see the engine to start aiming at it in my crappy 380 P FPV system. So now I have to hit a 6 foot hole while traveling 100 MPH as my target is approaching at 140 mph while descending and bobbing in the wind to keep level. (ALL THE WHILE EXPENDING POWER) at this point one of several things will happen.

1. Most likely I have expended my battery pack already and have fallen from the sky. 2. I get my one shot at that engine and miss my target simply because my reaction time is too slow to adjust for all the other variables. (which by the way my reaction time even as old as I am is quite fast compared to most) 3. I get extremely lucky and hit my target. The quad gets destroyed taking out several fins which the engine eats and begins to disintegrate. The battery which is now so depleted only gets shredded and sent thru the engine. The engine
burps all the chunks out ( Ill even GIVE you that it totally explodes). Alarms go off in the cock pit the pilot has to concentrate on keeping the plane level and putting it on the tarmac. The copilot and flight engineer scramble to find what went wrong and handle it. By the time the know they lost an engine the plane is on the ground damaged maybe even in a crashed condition because the explosion took off part of the wing and the plane twisted around on the loss of power and lift.

That is an awful lot of things that have to happen for a drone to realistically and intentionally take out an aircraft. That's not even taking into account the myriad of other variables that would have to line up perfectly to take out a plane intentionally. Yes there are other methods and means to use a Drone to attack passenger aircraft but even terrorists are smart enough to know that any efforts to do so have such a low chance to succeed they wont bother when they already have better proven methods.

Bottom line the ONLY thing the Registry is for is to add to the governments tracking of people, another method to fund projects no one knows about nor would ever support, and to set up an in for even more money to be extorted from people in the form of insurance. The government cares nothing of our safety above us being their piggy bank.

In the future please feel free to address me in a private manor as I do soo love being Direct so we can discuss things freely and not bring all this uglyness to a place of calm and Zen.
 

Geeto67

Posting Elsewhere
#56
Interesting take Geeto67. Well stated.

But. I suggest there is a missing component.

I put my name and number on my craft. I always have.

What is the FAA's justification for prosecuting someone who is not registered (drone registrations register the pilot not the craft) but who is flying safely and sanely over their own property and has their name and number on their craft?

Or do you think they won't?
The question of enforcement has come up several times in this thread, and to be honest I really don't think the FAA has the appetite for enforcement other than tied to other criminal activity. More than likely they will leave that to local law enforcement and from the ongoing public conversation regarding sanctuary cities you can see how little local law enforcement loves to do that. Bascially if it isn't a big ticket crime (like murder) or something they can make money off of (like speeding) they have no interest - and unregistered drones? yeah there is little to no interest.

before you said something about confiscation and criminalization, and you aren't entirely wrong. If you are on their radar, not having a registration number makes it easier for them to impound as part of the investigation. Same with local law enforcement, if they are investigating a local crime, an unregistered drone opens doors for them otherwise needed by a search warrant.

Something else to keep in mind here: the FAA really doesn't care about aircraft operating below 400 feet if they are not near an airport (1200ft if they are - class G airspace). So the scenario of the FAA prosecuting someone operating their model unregistered over their property not near an airport is highly unlikely. Keep in mind also there needs to be someone around to report it - FAA inspectors aren't hiding in the bushes (because that would be trespassing without a warrant).
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding faceplant!
Mentor
#57
Just an update on my earlier posts.

The local high school has asked me back to work with kids on some copters I have donated in the past. One of them popped a flight controller and the magic smoke was released.

I will be registering with the FAA simply because being an adult around kids means leading by example. I despise what our government has become. But that does not excuse lawlessness and I will not demonstrate lawlessness to children. Since I will be flying around them, I will avoid even the appearance of lawlessness.

However, if I am on a jury and the FAA is claiming that someone has violated a law by not being registered..... put me down for a not guilty verdict. I will not support this rule in court.

Furthermore, I believe the FAA has no rights to create lanes for UAVs since the FAA does not own private airspace above homes below 400 ft. Property owners do. Selling such airspace to Google or Amazon would be an illegal taking and as such would be unconstitutional (5th amendment) without compensation. I would support the prosecution of FAA employees or LEOs who attempt to enforce any such rule under title 18 sections 241 and 242 of the US Federal code.

The statement that the scenario of the FAA prosecuting someone operating their model, unregistered, over their property not near an airport is unlikely does little to reassure me that the FAA does not plan to steal our airspace and sell it to the highest bidder and hold that over our heads. I simply recall Beria "Show me the man and I'll find you the crime.".

This rule does not promote liberty and justice. It is a sword of Damocles over the heads of property owners nationwide.
 

Geeto67

Posting Elsewhere
#58
Well there is a whole body of law he haven’t discussed yet and that is airspace as real estate. It has been well established in the federal courts that the FAA cannot take airspace below 500 feet for the purpose of air travel without compensation. An interesting fact is that the FAA has to purchase the air rights around airports in order to regulate the airspace for a traffic pattern. Nobody in this conversation is talking seriously about lanes to operate below 500 feet, but if they were they would be talking about the FAA compensating them.

Now could they do that through emmninent domain? Yep, but they could do that with your house too so nobody is really “safe” and they could always do that. Airspace real estate may go back to the 1960’s but eminent domain as a government power predates the constitution.

The primary focus of the FAA is protecting full size aircraft. If there is a full size aircraft below 500 feet over your residential property the least the FAA has to worry about is your unregistered quadcopter.

By they way, are you confused by 500, 400, 365, and 360 feet yet? 500 feet and above not near an airport is designated navigable airspace by the FAA, 400 feet is the box the FAA has regulated for Drone operation where they literally could care less what you are doing, 365 feet is what the Supreme Court has designated as your exclusive air right for the purposes of construction without interfering with air traffic (provided you are not near an airport), and 360 is the amount of non navigable airspace above a structure that is taller than 500 feet (like a skyscraper).

As to drone registration over your own property, it’s not just one law that impacts you have to consider the whole body of laws around you. If your property is rural and not residential, you are blow 400 feet, to enforce against you the FAA would have to get a warrant or trespass to do so and there isn’t enough evidence that can be collected for a warrant without trespassing -so how can they do anything?

If you are flying in a residential area, they tell me why your copter shouldn’t be registered when the risk of operation increases 100 fold.
 
Last edited:

Geeto67

Posting Elsewhere
#59
Feel better now?

Like you I too am a more direct person AND grumpier in my old age. I play nice here because it is the way of this forum. Since you have puffed up and directly addressed me I shall reply. Directly. We shall go line by line but I won't snip quotes as I want to address your whole speech so we shall go down in order.

I have spent a fair amount of time in and around full scale aircraft. I have been in a P-3 Orion in a hail storm that took out the nose of the plane. The wings were flexing
enough you would see the out board engine disappear and reappear as it flapped like a bird looking out the tiny port windows. I will agree with you and say that was terrifying. I have done fod walk downs on the USS Nimitz looking for anything down to and including small piece of non skid deck covering that has flaked off and could cause damage. I have seen where a guy who lost a hand to an engine after getting pulled into an A7 intake and the only thing that saved him was the ground crew near him being able to grab hold long enough for the pilot to power down right before a cat launch. I have moved live ordnance around live aircraft so I know the hazards that can happen around them. Unrelated to aviation I have seen a man decapitated when someone ignored lock out procedures during maintenance on weapons elevators. I am not as clueless as you imagine when it comes to REAL things.

As for what you do for a living first I feel bad for you dealing with that environment all the time. My condolences. But that also tells me you having spent so much time in that are a professional manipulator thus making a lot of your opinion even less valid to me in the grand scheme of things. Since you toss around the cost of the Registry lets break it down. First its a data base a simple list of who and where. This could viably be done by a monkey on google spreadsheets. But there is security involved and the monkey may talk according to government theory. So the cost of a programmer to design a secure website to collect simple form information and AUTOMATICALLY is / was near impossible for our government to pull off in a timely manor. This is THE COMPUTER AGE mate.. there is none of the bureaucratic red tape necessary to do things and all the scumbags running this country simply add zeros and move that funny little dot to ensure their pockets get lined as well as having a little something on the side for all those Super Secret projects no one in their right mind would willingly pay for get funded. If it was done right its a few hours work on a computer, the electric bill to run said computer and
some monthly computer maintenance. It doesn't cost a bajillion dollars to do. That only happens when the information collected needs to be distributed to places and people NOT involved with the reasoning given for said data base. After all its just a list of people who fly remote controlled toys right.....

Managing terrorism... It IS about it. Its about that, its about fear mongering, its about manipulating weak minded people into thinking this is actually best for them. In the 100 plus year history there has NEVER been a need for anything but the hobby self policing the people in it thru teaching proper safety, common courtesy, and passing on the history of fun and design of model aircraft. It wasn't until Government and Big Business decided that they could use OUR hobby as a tool of war. Then they found out how simple it all is and panicked that the normal thinking people they have been oppressing with their toys could in fact easily turn it back on them. There is no need for the hobby to be regulated ever right up until that point they panicked.

In the old days it was a requirement for people and still is to put their name on their aircraft in the case of a lost model. Not so they could get their stuff back (but that is a benefit) but so if any damage were caused the owner could be responsible and correct the damages in an honorable way). LONG before insurances were forced on everyone. Normal people in our hobby do not (no matter how much our twisted government officials think) have the desire to do harm with our hobby. We want to get together in a safe place to be with friends to fly and show off our gear and our skills and some of us like me and race quads now want to compete in a race. We could give two craps less about full scale planes. If one happens to be flying by most of us stop what we do and watch it maybe even dreaming man Id LOVE to be up there today.

Now lets step into reality and probability shall we. Can drones take down a plane.. yeah in the perfect storm scenario they could. Lets start with your battery reference. Yes batteries explode. Usually ONLY under over charged situations. In all other cases they merely burn IF they have enough power in them to actually ignite. So lets talk reality... Should a lipo somehow get into a jet engine 99% chance it is only going to burn and not explode because a good portion of its power has already been expended getting to a flying planes running engine. Engines have fires all the time and the fire suppression equipment in them is more then capable to handle that. Unless catastrophic damage occurs its merely a normal day at the office for a pilot. Oh btw there are not many single engine passenger planes that I am aware of so no the plane does not fall from the sky in this case.

Now lets talk about getting to an airplane to intentionally attack it. DJI phantoms most common craft perpetrating said attacks or incursions on full scale planes as well as top offender for rules breaking over all.. Top speed 30 mph ish? Jet aircraft What ~140 mph just to stay in the air? Lets be VERY forgiving and say 80 mph to lump in lesser powered craft as well. Last I knew 30 mph is FAR slower the 80 so Drones are NOT going to chase down a plane to take it out of the air. Now me being an avid FPV pilot I pride myself on being able to make my drone fit thru a small area at speeds over 80 mph. So that gives me the best chance to go after an aircraft. Ill even use my best quad and say I can hit 100 mph for this scenario.

I plan to take down an aircraft.. My BEST place to do so is on approach where I KNOW where an craft will be and exactly what direction it is going. Here are my options... I stand off unseen where I can fly in low and get into position. (power expended to get there) I see my target and start my run to meet it before it gets to low to be effective in my attack. (MORE power expended) I get in the flight path and start my run (the whole time expending power) I head off towards the aircraft looking for the best place to hit it.. an Engine. I will have to be within say 100 meters to even see the engine to start aiming at it in my crappy 380 P FPV system. So now I have to hit a 6 foot hole while traveling 100 MPH as my target is approaching at 140 mph while descending and bobbing in the wind to keep level. (ALL THE WHILE EXPENDING POWER) at this point one of several things will happen.

1. Most likely I have expended my battery pack already and have fallen from the sky. 2. I get my one shot at that engine and miss my target simply because my reaction time is too slow to adjust for all the other variables. (which by the way my reaction time even as old as I am is quite fast compared to most) 3. I get extremely lucky and hit my target. The quad gets destroyed taking out several fins which the engine eats and begins to disintegrate. The battery which is now so depleted only gets shredded and sent thru the engine. The engine
burps all the chunks out ( Ill even GIVE you that it totally explodes). Alarms go off in the cock pit the pilot has to concentrate on keeping the plane level and putting it on the tarmac. The copilot and flight engineer scramble to find what went wrong and handle it. By the time the know they lost an engine the plane is on the ground damaged maybe even in a crashed condition because the explosion took off part of the wing and the plane twisted around on the loss of power and lift.

That is an awful lot of things that have to happen for a drone to realistically and intentionally take out an aircraft. That's not even taking into account the myriad of other variables that would have to line up perfectly to take out a plane intentionally. Yes there are other methods and means to use a Drone to attack passenger aircraft but even terrorists are smart enough to know that any efforts to do so have such a low chance to succeed they wont bother when they already have better proven methods.

Bottom line the ONLY thing the Registry is for is to add to the governments tracking of people, another method to fund projects no one knows about nor would ever support, and to set up an in for even more money to be extorted from people in the form of insurance. The government cares nothing of our safety above us being their piggy bank.

In the future please feel free to address me in a private manor as I do soo love being Direct so we can discuss things freely and not bring all this uglyness to a place of calm and Zen.
TL;DR
 

cranialrectosis

Faster than a speeding faceplant!
Mentor
#60
If you are flying in a residential area, they tell me why your copter shouldn’t be registered when the risk of operation increases 100 fold.
I put my name and number on my craft. I have no issue whatsoever being held accountable to my neighbors.

The FAA is not registering craft. They are registering people. The risk is not my copter. The risk is loss of liberty and the loss of the rule of law by allowing the FAA to illegally prosecute citizens under this rule.

Why should I register myself, like a sex offender, to the federal government to use my own property on my own property? I have not been convicted of violating any federal laws. If the feds demand registration under such circumstances, they are violating federal law.

The proper thing to do is to prosecute everyone at the FAA who created this or any LEOs who enforced this illegal rule under title 18. It's the FAA who violated the law. It's the FAA employees who should be facing justice. Until they do, the FAA is a criminal organization.

Why should anyone register with a criminal organization to not be bullied by that criminal organization?

How do you think that is going to work out?

The FAA like the IRS is a swamp that needs draining. Registration just feeds it.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.