1m Beech Staggerwing D17S

aelflyer

Member
Greetings. Inspired by JBing's Beech Staggerwing, fadicvb and I are embarking to design a 1m FliteTest-style Beech Staggerwing D17S, complete with flaps on the lower wings, ailerons on the upper wings, and retracts on all 3 wheels. The goal is a 1m scale version of this classic beauty designed for the FliteTest C-Pack.

Neither of us have experience with retracts. Suggestions for how to design the retracts in this plane (esp. the tail wheel)? We ideally want to keep the retract mechanisms as simple and light as possible.

Anyone want to help build prototypes as we progress?

beechcraft-d-17s-1937-aug-1968-aam-centerfold-small.jpg
 
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aelflyer

Member
Okay, the building has started. fadicvb and I are iterating, with the plans evolving quickly (we both have a fuselage built and are making changes as we go).

We'll start posting work-in-progress pictures soon, but let us know if you want to build/design with us.
 

aelflyer

Member
Progress

Here's a picture of (almost) all of the foam pieces for the 1.0m Staggerwing and their dry weight. This is all of the foam except for the spaces that go on the trailing edge of the bottom of the wing, and I haven't yet made the cutout in the bottom of the fuselage for the lower wing. I am waiting until the wings are formed to get the exact outline of the airfoil.

Note that the flaps and ailerons are identically shaped. This seems odd, but it is indeed how the Staggerwing is made.

Next step is to install the wing servos before closing up the wing. I am also measuring the retract options to see if I can make room for main retracts in this wing. If not, I'm going to make the lower wing removable, test-fly it, and then build a thicker lower wing that can take retracts.

Note: I'm working from updated plans, not the ones posted here. Contact us for the latest plans, and we'll continue to update them as we work out the kinks.
 

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aelflyer

Member
Wing profile update

I had to redesign the wing profile to accomodate retracts. The smallest/thinnest/lightest servoless retract units I could find weigh 18g w/out the struts and wheels and are 21mm thick. I've ordered these: http://www.himodel.com/plane/Servoless_Retractable_Landing_Gear_PZ-15094.html.

I asked for help on the FliteTest Facebook group, and Caleb Ramos, Nic Lechner Timothy Cuatt, Smith Hayward, and Tony Monti came back with suggestions. Caleb pointed out I could add score cuts to the bottom of the wing, near the leading edge, to create a smoother, more blunt leading edge. I did a bunch of prototype mock-ups and realized that I could get a smooth shape by adding a bunch more score cuts. This is similar to NerdNic's wing designs. I ended up with 2 score cuts on the bottom and 5 score cuts on the top. Each score cut is glued to hold the shape and reinforce, just like a normal FT wing score cut---the only difference is there are more cuts.

Another modification is that I added foam to the leading edge seam/break to "undo the beveling I cut for the original design." Next time I build this wing, I will simply put a score cut with BBQ skewer opening with no beveling at the leading edge seam. That will keep the leading edge smoother and blunter rather than being sharp. That isn't possible with a normal FT wing because that seam is a very sharp bend, but with all the extra score cuts, the actual leading edge shouldn't need beveling.

The end result is a semi-symmetric airfoil with ample room for the retract units.


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rockyboy

Skill Collector
Mentor
Neat approach with the airfoil design! One thing to watch out for would be adding significant weight with all the hot glue in each of those score cuts. If you have access to a foaming glue like White Gorilla Glue (not sure where in the world you're building) that could give you similar or even better strength characteristics at the leading edge without the weight penalty.

Looking forward to seeing this come to life!
 

DamoRC

Elite member
Mentor
Neat approach with the airfoil design! One thing to watch out for would be adding significant weight with all the hot glue in each of those score cuts. If you have access to a foaming glue like White Gorilla Glue (not sure where in the world you're building) that could give you similar or even better strength characteristics at the leading edge without the weight penalty.

Looking forward to seeing this come to life!

Agree with rockyboy, GG in the scores should save weight and provide more strength / stiffness. Only addition I would make is that in my experience, the original formula is stronger than the white. Not sure if this is just the way I used them but I was a little disappointed in the strength of the white GG the one (and only) time I used it.

DamoRC
 

aelflyer

Member
Yeah, I'm also a bit worried about the weight of the glue. Here is some data:

1) New, many-score-cut wing weight = 117g

2) The "other wing," which doesn't have the score cuts or score-cut-glue yet. This is the weight of everything (including spars) except the score-cut-glue. = 97g

So the score cuts add 10g per 40" wing when done with hot glue (the wing is 40" span with a 6" chord).

I'm building in Seattle (my co-designer, Fadi, is in Tunisia). I have both Gorilla Glue and FoamTac in my shop. FoamTac is amazing on EPP, but I haven't tried it on foamboard. Lighter would be good. I'll run some tests on my mock-ups with other glue to see how well they hold.

I really appreciate the support and feedback---keep it coming.
 

aelflyer

Member
Remove paper instead of score cuts?

Here's a quick mock-up removing some of the paper on the inside (in the region where I otherwise would have score cut). Given my goal of making a thick wing with a blunt leading edge, it seems like removing the paper is an attractive way to accomplish the shape.

No score cuts, no glue.

But presumably not as strong. Think my single 2mm tall, 10mm thick vertical spar will be enough to hold this together w/out paper on the inside?

IMG_0613.jpg
 
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rockyboy

Skill Collector
Mentor
That will be plenty strong to fly, but hanger rash and rough landings become a little more of a risk. Then again, we're typically building these to fly for a year or two, not last a decade :) Also I've seen Hildaflyer have good success with bent wing shapes like that (and folded ones too) with a thin layer of fiberglass over the top for skin strength.
 

DamoRC

Elite member
Mentor
For a biplane with 2x 40 inch wings and a C-pack, don't sweat the less that 1 oz overall weight gain.

DamoRC
 

aelflyer

Member
OK, I'll just score + hot-glue the 2nd wing like the first. I like the idea of GG, but it is going to be a difficult exercise to get the wing clamped/held in shape for hours while it dries.

Hopefully DamoRC is right that the 40" x 6" x 2 wing area generates heaps of extra lift (the retracts add an embarrassing amount of weight as well :)).
 

aelflyer

Member
Setting the wing angles

Now that the leading edge is no longer on the bottom of the wing, I had some design questions about how to align the top and bottom wings in the fuselage. My first question was: which wing line to do I pick for aligning the wings? Leading edge to trailing edge? Flat bottom? Top or bottom of trailing edge. I asked this on the FliteTest Facebook group and received an insightful answer from Dan Crews.

He said:
"ideal AOA on the wing and decalage between both wings and the wings and the tail will depend on the airfoil's characteristics itself, and your goals as a designer . . . but there is no data for that airfoil to guide you in that . . . so . . .

The next best thing you can do is realize the air doesn't care as much about the fuselage as you do. It cares what the relative angles between the all the primary surfaces are (decalage), and it cares how that relates to the thrust-line. The fuse does contribute to the forces, but little enough you can file that away as "I've got bigger problems to deal with".

So how do you align the wings to each other? to the tail? Without data, the line you pick for the airfoil is only a reference, so nearly any will do. Even with data, it's only a reference, and you'd use the data to set the wing to behave how you'd like it in various airspeeds and attitudes. For a reference, I'd go with the LE-TE line, personally, since it's generally closer flat at a cruising attitude . . . generally.

Once you've picked the line, decalage between the main wings should be such that the forward wing stalls first (lower wing, for the staggerwing). You always want the nose to drop in a stall. To do this, the forward wing should be just a few degrees nose up from the trailing wing. Just a few (<5). This is a subtle effect. Don't be tempted to make it pronounced. Increasing the decalage between the wings too much will push at least one if not both of them out of optimum for any given attitude. We just want to make sure the leading wing barely falls out of normal flight first.

Ideal decalage between the tail and wings is a bit more tricky, and again, without data becomes an eyeball mechanism. In the end, the up/down elevator will act as a change in camber of the tail surface bringing the effective Stab/elevator AoA back into line with the ideal decalage for cruise -- in effect, you'll trim that out . . . so long as you have enough throw to be happy with that trim. Spitballing, I'd set the decalage between the shallowest wing (most aft wing -- upper for the staggerwing) and the tail to zero (again, assuming the line is from farthest point LE to farthest point TE), since this is likely close to cruise attitude."​

Based on that advice and the fact that I wanted the top wing to be flush with the top of the fuselage, I went with "leading edge to top of trailing edge" as my reference line for alignment. I have no idea if that is correct aerodynamically, but it's a good guess.

I then created a template for the airfoil shape of the wing (see picture below with explanation in linked thread), measured out a 5 degree increase in AOA for the bottom wing, level for the top wing, and used the template to trace the aligned wing shape onto the two halves of the unfolded fuselage.

IMG_0654.jpg

Here is a picture of the result with the top wing attached and the fuse resting (unattached) on the bottom wing. Note that this is *not* the final alignment of the bottom wing because the wing isn't fully closed up. The final alignment has the leading edge buried up in the fuselage to create the small increase in AOA Dan suggests.

IMG_0660.jpg
 

aelflyer

Member
Progress

With the wings formed and the fuselage cut to accept them, this is starting to look like a plane:

1) Tail servos installed in a "bridge" (linkage stoppers will be accessible via a bottom access panel).

IMG_0638.jpg

2) Ailerons installed in upper wing, with servos flush with bottom of wing.

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aelflyer

Member
It's alive!

First sign of life. Motor and 4 of the 6 control surface servos alive and wiggling:

 
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aelflyer

Member
Oops, I just realized this entire thread should have been in the Scratch Build section. Sorry about that FliteTest. At least this uses a swappable power pod :/
 

iBigNTastyi

New member
Pretty sweet looking build! Hopefully the weather here in Washington will clear up long enough for you to test fly it!
 

aelflyer

Member
Pretty sweet looking build! Hopefully the weather here in Washington will clear up long enough for you to test fly it!

Ah, a local! Indeed.

The retracts should arrive this week, so if all goes well, it might be ready to fly by end of the week. We'll see---I still have a number of pieces to puzzle through. Especially getting the cowl figured out and (gulp) inventing a retracting tail wheel system.

PM me.
 

iBigNTastyi

New member
Ah, a local! Indeed.

The retracts should arrive this week, so if all goes well, it might be ready to fly by end of the week. We'll see---I still have a number of pieces to puzzle through. Especially getting the cowl figured out and (gulp) inventing a retracting tail wheel system.

PM me.

PM'ed you
 

aelflyer

Member
Here we go...

Starting on the retract design/installation:


The servoless retract unit fits perfectly in the wing. However, the wheels are too thick to disappear in the wing. I considered cutting the top of the wing and having the wheels stick up into the fuselage, but the fuse isn't wide enough for that. As-is, I'll have to leave about half of the wheel sticking out below the wing when fully retracted---probably not the end of the world as I'm not going for a speed record with this plane, but it's not ideal. I'll look for a thinner wheel/tire.

I think I see a path forward for the tail wheel retract. I'll post pictures/mock-ups soon.
 
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