Next Multirotor?

[Olektric]

Hello, I am new around here, so any advice or help would be greatly appreciated.

I have had a few years of experience with RC flying; airplanes, helicopters, RTF quads, etc. Over this past year (on and off), I have build a ~450mm quadcopter and fitted it with the FatShark Teleporter 3 kit to get into FPV. I am now getting comfortable with it and am learning to fly FPV (with a spotter). However, I am excited and ready to build my next multi rotor. I am between making a ~250mm racing quad or one of David's famous tri-copters. I would like to keep the build on the cheaper side, being $200-300 (hopefully including camera and VTX). The appeal of the quadcopter is the quick moving and exhilarating flying, while the appeal of the tricopter is the versatility and stability. For the racing quad, I was looking at the Argonaut 250/320 with an CC3D or Naze 32. (Note: I would prefer a build with an integrated PDB board)

Any thoughts, recommendations, advice?

Thanks in advance

 

[narcolepticltd]

My recommendation will probably not mesh well with what most are going to say here, but if you're wanting to go the 250 racer route, I'd definitely stick with what is considered quality rather than 'cheap' (at least on the frame/motors side of things).

Having a high quality carbon fiber frame will pay for itself both during the build, and every time you crash it -because it won't be a broken mess you have to replace-

Stick with a naze32 acro if you plan to run cleanflight as that will keep costs down on the board while still getting the quality you need (last thing you want to worry about is issues with your FC). Rotorgeeks has some excellent 12a speed controllers that are practically bullet proof and are also a decent price. I personally like cobra motors... get the 2204s and don't bother with the 1806s unless you have a racing club you plan to join that has restrictions to certain motors.

Assuming you already have batteries, you could get away with $300ish but still put the money where it matters.

 

[Olektric]

So you recommend a 250 quad? My understanding is that the top notch racers are the blackout and the QAV, which would you recommend?

 

[narcolepticltd]

So you recommend a 250 quad? My understanding is that the top notch racers are the blackout and the QAV, which would you recommend?

out of the 2 options you presented, for fpv I think a 250 quad will get a lot more mileage (really depends on what kind of flying you enjoy best).

between the QAV and the blackout, go for the blackout (my opinion anyways)

 

[jipp]

there are quite a few top quality frames now a days.. i recommend 250 too.

and i went with a cheap 139 zmr kit with a 12mm riser kit with front and back LED bumpers.. and that was my first experience with anything RC/ or MR>. so im happy i went that way and would recomend a kit to someon who has very little experience in RC/MR, as it was a great learning tool for me.. also was not sure if i was gonna like it after i built it.. so the kit was most logical.. that and i had no clue of parts, and how they worked with each other.. and just general RC information you all learn when you built your first plane 30 years ago

however, as you have experience, and have built a larger quad.. its quite obviouse you can source the parts your self.
so yeah go with a pure carbon 250ish frame. starta thread so people like me can learn.. as i have so much more to learn.. from building to flying..

my next build will be more expensive ( and already more stressful. i ordered my frame from the Uk.. 10 days ago.. and i do not know where its at.. hopefully tomorrow ill have a email telling me whats up.. laughs.. as i had my kit from china in 7 days ).. and in theory it should out last the ZMR.. but the guy who sold me the kit said it was pure carbon.. so maybe i got a good one.. because so far its taking my small crashes just fine which makes me proud.. as it says i built it sorta right. or i would of had a solder joint break already. lol.

here check out this webpage for some current frames available. and motors, and FC>. its a pretty cool webpage to sorta window shop your dream MR.
http://blog.oscarliang.net/250-mini-quad-part-list-fpv/

yeah, the black out you can replace the arms.. the qav you have to basically rebuild your quad again, cause its the whole base plate.. blah.. from what iv read the newer QAV are not as strong as the old ones? because the ones one you could not break and current batch people are breaking them? this is just what iv seen people say.. no first hand info on it, so you can take them rumors with a grain of salt.. but just from a logical stand point tho.. it seems cheaper to replace a arm than a whole base plate.. as you are not buying any carbon fiber you do not need.. you are just buying the carbon fiber you need for that broken arm. so yeah.. id go for a black out mini H first. but its up to you.. you can have more than one MR in your hanger, and i think we all should have lots of them to choose from.
chris.

 

[Ocean]

I would strongly recommend getting a 250, having built both, I think a 250 is much more fun to fly. My Tricopter 2.5 never worked well.

Narco hit the nail on the head. Get quality components and they pay for themselves. I went cheap to start and have gone through 3 sets of components just for my mini quad since August last year.

QAV v Blackout? I would say Blackout , very durable and will fly great.

 

[Cyberdactyl]

I would say everyone should at least have the opportunity to have a few hours with a tricopter to find out if it appeals to them.

I fly large two string kites, (not so much anymore, but was very active a few years ago)and tricopters give a bit of that same 'alpha-wave' sensation, a much more organic feel over motor torque controlled multirotors, and can be very addictive.

If you were to choose to build one, I would highly recommend that you keep the boom length in the 250-350mm range, and use a kv motor in the 1000-1300 range. Mine has 400mm booms, and DT750s spinning 11" props. While that is useful for lifting projects, and for graceful, swooping video, and fine for me, someone else looking for more 'action' may find it a bit sluggish if you want it for FPV.

 

[SilentGloves]

First off, build the 250. They're loads of fun.

In the 250 realm, I've built both a Minion (aka Pat's Mini H) with the Power Distribution Board, and a Blackout with the Power Distribution Board. Both are extremely well constructed, I've put both through extensive crash testing, intentionally, of course. While toughness is similar, I found that the Blackout PDB is superior. The Minion's PDB came pre-tinned, and I'm not quite an expert solderer. There was some remaining flux on the pads, and this caused me headaches when soldering. Also, the placement of the ESC pads is easier to deal with on the Blackout. One other thing I've noticed, the FPV camera mount on the Minion fits extremely tightly into the top frame. I had to use a rubber mallet to get it in there, which will ultimately be a PITA if I need to do field repairs. In contract, the Blackout basically fell together.

The QAV 250, although I haven't built one, is a tough, extremely flyable frame, and saves some weight due to its single-piece base plate. However, I find the design to be a little more intimidating in terms of building one.

The only downside to Blackout is product availability. I'd order a bunch of replacement parts while they're in stock, otherwise you might find yourself waiting a long time to get back in the air.

Hope this is helpful!

 

[Olektric]

Thanks everybody for the input. The blackout seems to be a great choice, but on the expensive side. If I want to use cobra motors, etc, $150 on a frame already bites a lot into my budget. Is there a cheaper alternative? Something in the $80-100 price range? Has anyone heard of the P220 250mm quad? Its made of carbon fiber and seems well designed. Also, does anybody know the best place to buy electronics in one order other than HK (motors, esc, fc, fpv gear, receiver)?

Thanks

 

[SilentGloves]

My humble opinion, save up until you can buy the Blackout. The tolerances, cuts and general build quality of the less expensive frames are not up to snuff, especially with the Chinese stuff. The ZMR250, for example, is basically hit-or-miss. You might get a great product, if you get one early in a production run, or you might get something you can't even make fit together.

My favorite shops are:
http://www.multirotorsuperstore.com/
http://www.getfpv.com/
http://www.readymaderc.com/ (They currently have the Blackout in stock)
http://rotorgeeks.com/ (I would recommend their 12a ESC quad pack)

 

[SilentGloves]

Also, Naze32 is the way to go. Flash it with Cleanflight, enable OneShot (If you use the rotorgeeks ESCs or other OneShot compatible ESCs, which you should), flip it over to the LuxFloat PID Controller, and off you go.

 

[BankNYank!]

Also, does anybody know the best place to buy electronics in one order other than HK (motors, esc, fc, fpv gear, receiver)?

Thanks

I like RTFQ.

 

[cranialrectosis]

Thanks everybody for the input. The blackout seems to be a great choice, but on the expensive side. If I want to use cobra motors, etc, $150 on a frame already bites a lot into my budget. Is there a cheaper alternative?

Yes, but it will be cheaper. The Blackout is expensive but you only buy it once. Anything less is going to perform less.

Not all carbon fiber is the same. Just because a Chinese advertisement says the copter is carbon fiber does not mean it is strong like a WarpQuad or Blackout.

A QAV 250 and a Blackout 250 should both fly about the same as a $50 Chinese POS. The difference is not obvious until you crash and you see how the Blackout's design protected your Cobra motors.

Save up the money and buy the Blackout or the QAV.

 

[narcolepticltd]

as far as design goes, the only thing problematic with the blackout is the price. on the QAV, the one piece bottom frame with the arms all cut from one piece of carbon can get you into trouble as well. The only thing you'll be replacing on a blackout will be the nylon bolts... which honestly should be replaced with aluminum when you build it, and not after your first crash

 

[Cyberdactyl]

as far as design goes, the only thing problematic with the blackout is the price.

I totally agree. The Blackout is indeed a higher quality mini, but I can see how it can get frustrating to read the same recommendations over and over, almost to the point of suggesting that if you can't afford a Blackout, you can't have any fun and shouldn't be purchasing a mini quad until you can.

Many people DO have a budget, and can't afford to buy six or eight KISS ESCs and pray four of them work, or >$20 motors, and a $150 frame, etc., so when only high-end components are recommended, I can easily see how someone wanting a decent recommendation can get frustrated. I've yet to have a failure of any of my cheap ESCs and motors. Sure they may not preform to cutting edge specs or may weigh a few grams more, but are still a load of fun for 25-50% the price.

Here's is an honest review by rc model reviews giving an honest and subjective relationship between price, durability and function.

 

[narcolepticltd]

I'm certainly not recommending KISS ESCs as the benchmark in this thread (even though I love em) and there are plenty of good ESCs out there. And certainly not stating 'get a blackout or you can't fly a racer' either

I do believe that buying spares of components is a good practice, even if you're picking them up after your initial build... I picked up 8 KISS for my last build simply because I'm new to soldering, and I break stuff... so far my ability to break stuff has been the key element to killing one ESC, and not my lack of soldering ability

 

[SilentGloves]

I prefer the rotorgeeks 12A ESCs because of this. But KISS ESCs will work just fine. I do recommend BLHeli, though.

 

[SilentGloves]

I totally agree. The Blackout is indeed a higher quality mini, but I can see how it can get frustrating to read the same recommendations over and over, almost to the point of suggesting that if you can't afford a Blackout, you can't have any fun and shouldn't be purchasing a mini quad until you can.

Many people DO have a budget, and can't afford to buy six or eight KISS ESCs and pray four of them work, or >$20 motors, and a $150 frame, etc., so when only high-end components are recommended, I can easily see how someone wanting a decent recommendation can get frustrated. I've yet to have a failure of any of my cheap ESCs and motors. Sure they may not preform to cutting edge specs or may weigh a few grams more, but are still a load of fun for 25-50% the price.

Here's is an honest review by rc model reviews giving an honest and subjective relationship between price, durability and function.

Bruce also has a great, very thorough, low-cost mini racer build series. Found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jbpwqCCVbs&list=PLgHGpiWXS2eSYeceg736QSESW9mijzuhf

 

[narcolepticltd]

Bruce also has a great, very thorough, low-cost mini racer build series. Found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jbpwqCCVbs&list=PLgHGpiWXS2eSYeceg736QSESW9mijzuhf

For someone trying to save as much as possible that is a great build, and I'm glad he took the time to make those videos.

I still recommend the blackout though... but again, I look at it from a different angle than most on these forums

 

[SilentGloves]

I still recommend the blackout though... but again, I look at it from a different angle than most on these forums

If you're anything like me, the important question is... "How many times can I have an unexpected landing before I can't fly anymore?" For the Blackout and the Minion, I know this answer is quite a few. I suspect it's the same for the QAV250 and MXP230 Elite; all of which sit around the same price point. The ZMR-250, at least in Bruce's experience, likes to break arms. As I understand, he's gone through many and has probably spent a Blackout's worth of money on replacement arms and other parts.

All that being said, can you have fun with a discount quad? Without question. Flying anything is always better than flying nothing. With all the talk about the best, it's easy to get away from the most important idea... Buy the best stuff you can afford, and get in the air.