Scale Build-Off – Fred Reese 40" span RV-3

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
So I've been itching to do some balsa again for awhile. Some of the first models I built were balsa back in the early 80's, I specifically remember a Piper J3 Cub that was my first build with a lot of help from my dad, and a Fokker DR3 that was my last build after it met an untimely demise at the hands of a housecleaner just before I completed it (She claimed she thought the 3 complete wings and fuse awaiting covering and assembly were "scrap wood" and pitched them!)

There were a few others in between those two but they were all rubber or hand toss free flight as I couldn't afford motors and radios back then. After that I got into static plastic models for awhile but missed flying models. One of the last models I got as a child was a MRC Bellanca Citabria "Flying Foam Plane" it was free flight but had a small motor and some small nicads in it that were charged off a pack of C's you held to the bottom for a few minutes in exchange for a few seconds of powered boost. I flew the heck out of it until the batteries died and the prop was damaged. I couldn't find a new prop and couldn't bring myself to cut it open to replace the batteries, and it was pretty beat up by that time. After that I mainly got into model rocketry before getting out of modeling entirely through Middle School and High school. In college I got back into the rockets for awhile and then after graduating got into RC cars and trucks once I could finally afford radio gear. I still wanted a plane...but cars and trucks seemed easier and cheaper.

I always wanted to get back to model aviation though. And about 5 years ago in an issue dedicated to retro technology Make magazine featured the medicine man glider on the cover. I thought about building it from plans...but having been over 20 years since I had built anything from balsa and the kit being only about $25 delivered at the time (Now up to $30 plus shipping) I figured it was easier to just buy the kit. I had a blast building it but not much luck flying it. It did well on a few test hand launches...but a few weak points were revealed along with my lack of skill at piloting despite sim time. So I put it aside and figured I'd try flying it again someday when I had learned to fly better. Shortly after that I discovered FT and started building foamies - starting to feel like I'm ready to take the medicine man out and finish the power pod for it or build a hi-start....but...I've really been itching to build something else.

Since I built that first Piper Cub I've wanted to tackle building without a kit. Just from plans. But never felt that I had enough experience to tackle such a project. I'm still not sure if I have the experience but I figure there's only one way to get it :) I've been a fan of Van's aircraft since I first learned about them about 10 years ago and would someday love to build myself a real one. I don't currently have a garage and can't afford flight lessons so the chances of that happening aren't great, and being just a few months shy of the point where a medical certificate goes from lasting 60 months to 2 years my chances are looking slimmer by the day. But awhile back I found some plans on outerzone for a RV-3 I saw a real RV-3 by a local builder on display at our airshow while I was in the midst of building the medicine man and I think the guy is still cleaning my drool stains off of it. If I ever do get to build a plane it will probably be an RV-7 since I really can't justify a "toy" like a 3...but looking at the kits and plans I was able to find I kept coming back to these Fred Reese RV-3 plans. When I got my large format plotter a little over a year ago I printed the plans as a test...they've been sitting rolled up since and I forgot I had them until I unrolled them a few days ago:

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It's a 40" wingspan 38" long fuselage 360sqin wing and as originally designed with a 0.15 motor and 4ch control was listed as 48oz giving 19.2 Oz Sq Ft wing loading. I'd love to build it for glow...but what finally convinced me to start building this was Wilsonman's Scale contest - so I'm going to be doing an electric conversion. I'm hoping I can get some ideas/suggestions/help here with that. I have a few ideas on how to handle the mechanics but I'm not entirely sure all my ideas are sound or just what to choose for a motor. The original design spec'd a .15-.30 motor with 7x6 or 8x4 prop. All my other stuff flies 8x4 props so I'd like to stick with that. I'm thinking something in the 300w range for motor sounds about right - but I'd love confirmation and suggestions on the power system.

Upon seeing the plans rolled out my wife gasped and started worrying about where I'd store it, I was able to placate her by pointing out that it's actually smaller than my FT Spitfires and since it's balsa it can stay out in my non-airconditioned office. The Medicine man lives out there and hasn't experienced any warping or damage from the heat...the monokote did get nice and tighter than I've ever managed before though :D To give the plans some scale I grabbed the first foamie I could reach, my FT Scout.

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It was Wilsonman's contest that convinced me to finally start a balsa build and choose this one. And his rules say it can be an already started build...so I'm going to surf my excitement and start building even though the contest hasn't officially started yet ;) If you're going to follow my build though watch out as the subject will be changing when the contest starts!
 
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jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Last night I decided to dig in. Dusted off the stack of balsa I have and took stock. Turned out I have a lot less 1/8" than I thought I did and my 3/16" isn't quite big enough for the empennage - but I have a lot of 1/16" on hand and the wing is mostly 1/16" so that's where I figured I'd start. Besides, cutting all those ribs is the part I dreaded the most so why not tackle it head right out of the gate!

I started by printing out a second set of plans so I'd have one copy to build on top of and one to cut up as templates. Thankfully unlike the medicine man where every rib is different this is a constant chord wing so all the ribs are the same - except for 4 that cut the center cut out to clear the wing joiner. So I glued the full size plan to a piece of plastic poster board:
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I used scissors to cut this and didn't worry about sticking right to the line, I wanted to leave things a bit big so I could sand to the final contour:
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I started out using a pencil to trace the ribs but had a hard time seeing the lines so I switched to an extra fine point black pen - the lines should get sanded off anyway and the width of the pen tip gives me a bit more extra:
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First 3 ribs cut, only 13 more to go!
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The plans call for one opening just behind the spar - but I opted for two small holes so I could bolt the stack of ribs together and sand them as a set. I'm still not sure if I want to follow the original plans and use a single aileron servo in the center with bellcranks or if I just want to put individual servos out in the wings. I'll probably go with individuals...but either way I can add more openings in the spars for them once I decide. Any feedback on the two methods I'm open to. I'm also debating the possibility of doing flaps since the real RV-3 has flaps, the plans don't include them but they shouldn't be very hard to add:
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With the ribs bolted together it was fairly easy to sand them all down. I'm not great with a sanding block but am happy with the level of consistency I was able to achieve.
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I cut the spar notches with my bandsaw since I have a thin kerf narrow blade on there that was perfect for the job and made it super quick and easy, I just cut them a little narrow then sanded to final fit with a bit of 220 grit paper glued to a popsicle stick.
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Day one and the part I most dreaded is done! Debating whether to hit the LHS for more balsa or ordering it...one more sheet of 1/8" and I can start on the fuse. Until then I'll keep myself busy cutting out the 1/16" bulkheads and rest of the wing parts. Not sure if I have quite enough 1/16" to actually start building the wing or not...and that will mean clearing more space on my table - so I'm not in a huge hurry as I have a few multi rotor projects that are about to get the bits they need to progress that I want to finish off before I really dig in on glue-up of this.

But now that I've got a build thread going I've got a reason to keep going and make this build happen :)
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Well, here we go! I can provide some reference pics from the RV-3 in the EAA museum the next time I get up there.

Thanks! I've been googling RV-3's all weekend debating what paint scheme I'd like to go with. I really liked the one I saw here which was a white body with red and blue accents - but I can't find any reference to it on-line. Pretty sure one of my pilot friends knew the guy who built it so I'll have to check with him. Would be fun to model a local build :) But thankfully with almost 300 of them built there's no shortage of inspiration on-line. Almost too much!
 

johnmw

propulsion impromptu
shaping up nicely...
a thing i like about balsa build is the beautiful construction details.
look forward to see it finished,
GL & happy building! :)
 

Joker 53150

Mmmmmmm, balsa.
Mentor
Very nice subject for a build, I look forward to watching the progress! Also, I should probably pay more attention to the other forum areas, as I didn't know there was a build contest going on. That might be fun, although I really need to finish about 5 planes currently under construction before starting another one...! :p
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Very nice subject for a build, I look forward to watching the progress! Also, I should probably pay more attention to the other forum areas, as I didn't know there was a build contest going on. That might be fun, although I really need to finish about 5 planes currently under construction before starting another one...! :p

Don't have to start from scratch - already started builds are permitted as long as they haven't been covered or painted by the start ;)

http://forum.flitetest.com/showthread.php?15060-Flite-Test-Forum-Build-Off&p=161440#post161440

Pick one of those 5 that qualifies and join in, if nothing else it will give you an excuse to finish one :D
 

Noob

Senior Member
I have been thinking about building a plane from plans as well. Although I still have 2 kits to finish/build. I think I have definitely caught the balsa building bug. Can't wait to see your progress!
 

Joker 53150

Mmmmmmm, balsa.
Mentor
Don't have to start from scratch - already started builds are permitted as long as they haven't been covered or painted by the start ;)

http://forum.flitetest.com/showthread.php?15060-Flite-Test-Forum-Build-Off&p=161440#post161440

Pick one of those 5 that qualifies and join in, if nothing else it will give you an excuse to finish one :D

Well, of the 5 under construction only 2 of them are based on real or proposed aircraft and both of those already have paint and covering started. Maybe I'll start up #6 for the contest - we'll see how my schedule goes.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
One thing that concerns me about this build which I'm hoping some more experienced people will chime in on is if the conversion to electric may cause some CG issues.

I've never done a sheeted glassed fuselage like this before (any tips on where to find good 'glass and working with it?) or an electric conversion. The article that came with the plans warns that the build could become tail heavy and suggests repositioning the servos further forward if necessary to help. I'm wondering if it may be a good idea to modify the stabs to be built up instead of solid...and maybe the same for the rear of the fuse. It's not quite as scale since the RV-3 is an aluminum skinned plane not a fabric covered, but I'd rather give up some authenticity for good flying characteristics.

Anyone with more experience have anything they could share here? I'm tentatively thinking a 300w motor with 8x4.5" prop and 2200mah 3S pack based on my research so far. I have a good idea how much that weighs since it's close to what I run in my FT Spitfires, but I'm not sure how much a glow motor and fuel tank would have weighed in the original design. Will the battery and electric motor be heavier, lighter or about the same? If they're heavier I figure I'm safe with the rear as designed in the plans. If they're lighter I figure a built up rear may help keep the CG in check, if they're about the same...I may still want to lighten the rear a bit just in case.
 

willsonman

Builder Extraordinare
Mentor
For starters.. figure about 100W/pound of airplane. I would get further alon gin your build before contemplating power. But, as a suggestion... http://www.hobbypartz.com/96m602-bigfoot15-2826-950kv.html Being a conversion, engineer a battery area that can accommodate larger batteries to substitute longer flight time for lead ballast. You can lighten the tail by making a composite tail from foam with either a balsa or CF spar. Finish in either glass or tissue with WBPU. Depending on the glass you could save weight by going with tissue. With finishing techniques you can simulate the aluminum paneling and rivets.

Glassing is MUCH easier than you may think. On a plane of this size you are looking at glassing more for a ding protective coat rather than add strength. You can easily source cloth from HK or any composite supply company (sweet composites is my favorite). Since you are glassing for a surface finish you do not need to mess with cumbersome epoxy coats. Just use WBPU to adhere the glass. I mix a 1:1 of baby powder and WBPU to fill the weave. See my Gee Bee Z thread for more detail on this. The thinner glass will conform to surfaces and edges better. Heavier cloth makes it more durable but there is more weave to fill and does not like compound curves as much.
 
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jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Sounds like I'm on the right track then. The original article with the plans claimed a ready to fly weight of 3lbs and my research seemed to show that a .20 would be about 300w which is why I was thinking in that range. That Tacon looks nice...but I have to admit I had a bad experience with HobbyPartz about two years ago and haven't ordered from them since (though the sky lipos I bought from them as my first lipos are still going strong - I'd love to get more of them but they've been out of stock for 2 years so I kind of wonder why they even still list them on their site.)

I figure once I have a wing and a fuse I can do some test assembly to help decide if I need to do a lighter tail or not. For now I'll just plan on doing things mostly as per the plans. Though I'm probably going to make the cowl removable instead of just a side pod. We'll see if my finishing abilities are good enough to simulate panels and rivets or not :D

I haven't glassed a plane before - but I've done some composite construction on other stuff. Mostly just structural reinforcement though rather than anything that would show for finish. I've been watching your builds for tips and they've gone a long way towards convincing me I should tackle this ;)

Going to go cut some more bits...hoping I can get a few sheets of 1/8" balsa and 1/16" ply out of this next paycheck since I won't be able to make too much progress without either. Just hate to pay LHS prices with their poor selection...though once I add in shipping for mail order it's not THAT bad and a few bucks extra to be able to build NOW instead of in a week or so seems worth it. Also need to pick up some good CA - though I mostly plan on building with gorilla glue. I used titebond II on my last balsa build and was very disappointed in it as I had a number of glue joints break on a hard landing. Love it for scarf joints on the necks of cigar box guitars where it holds up under a LOT of tension from the strings...so was shocked it worked so poorly on balsa for me. I'm tempted to go with all CA (the designer recommended it) but I'm just wary of CA for plans due to how brittle it is. Still I do need some to tack a few things here and there.

Ok...enough typing off to the cutting board with me....
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Not a lot of progress tonight...but progress:

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Going to have to clean off the table soon to start gluing things up. Can't do the center section of the wing until I get some 1/16" ply. Have enough cut to start gluing up the sides - but no room unless I clean up the table :)
 

willsonman

Builder Extraordinare
Mentor
Weighing the pros and cons of different glues is something that is not to be taken lightly! I've had nothing but good use of TitebondII and I hate CA for how brittle it can be. I'm chalking it up to difference in technique here. Also, While I too have had issue with Hobbypartz I always come back for the Tacon motors. They are EXCELLENT motors.
 

AkimboGlueGuns

Biplane Guy
Mentor
Your parts look good. After seeing how many people are building with balsa for the contest, I am starting to have second thoughts on using DTFB as my primary construction material for the Acro Sport.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
Your parts look good. After seeing how many people are building with balsa for the contest, I am starting to have second thoughts on using DTFB as my primary construction material for the Acro Sport.

Thanks! Funny though, After seeing how many people are using foam I was second guessing my decision to go balsa :D Guess it's just a matter of perspective ;) One of these days I really do want to try using foam to build a balsa plan built up style instead of FT style. But I feel more comfortable with balsa than foam for scale detail so for this I was thinking balsa right from the start.

As for glue, TBII has always treated me very well, that's why I was so shocked that I had so many joint failures on my blasa glider. Maybe my bottle was showing it's age or the heat out here had affected it. It wasn't exactly a new bottle. Just left me kind of wary of trusting it on a build again. For some reason on that built the TB just didn't seem to be penetrating. Maybe it was the wood in that kit, maybe it was my glue...maybe I will trust TB on this build again. I'm really not a fan of gorilla with the way it foams unless I'm trying to fill a gap.

I mainly use thin CA to penetrate and reinforce areas - like the nose on my glider that I figured would be taking a lot of impacts. Or where screws go into wood and I don't want to wait for epoxy to set. The only time I generally use it in assembly is to tack pieces in place that I can't figure out a good way to pin or jig and know they won't move. I kind of think of it as "plastic in a bottle" and use it when I'd rather have a plastic piece than wood for whatever reason.
 

jhitesma

Some guy in the desert
Mentor
So I still haven't had time to get to the store and pickup some more wood (and I'm waiting to see what I can get a the LHS before resorting to ordering) and I don't have glue that I'm really happy with on hand necessitating another store trip. And I'm still not quite ready to clear off enough space to start gluing up wing ribs...but I'm trying to make at least a little bit of progress every night.

So last night I did the first bit of gluing preparing the trailing edge of the wings:
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Was nervous doing it without any pins, but thankfully everything stayed put. Couple of 1/8" balsa bits I have enough material on hand to cut out tonight...and may start working on the center wing section (only problem there is I had to print the plans as two sheets and that's right on the split. I taped up one set of plans to full dimensions...but the set I'm cutting up and using as cutting templates isn't taped up...and with the sun down I don't have a good light source to line them up.)

I've also hit a big of a quandary on the wing. Most of the balsa builds I've done in the past were considerably smaller than this. My glider was considerably larger (60" wing). I'm not sure just what to use for the two 1/4" spars. The glider used a single and slightly larger spruce spar. The smaller planes just used balsa. I was originally thinking I'd just use 1/4" balsa since I have quite a bit of it on hand...but I'm a little nervous about whether it's strong enough for a wing this size. There are two of them running roughly parallel so it's probably ok...but I'm thinking maybe at least hard balsa just to be safe. Just not sure since this is my first time on a build of quite the scale and the plans just say 1/4" with no indication of material (even though almost everything else specifies balsa or ply.) I'm assuming it was designed with balsa in mind...but I'm just not entirely sure. Any feedback?

Guess I need to start on that center section. I don't have the 1/16" ply for the wing joiners yet but I can at least do the bottom sheeting and gluing up the ribs.