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Storing LiPo Battery in Fridge

Merv

Well-known member
#21
Whilst i realize that their are many who never experience any issues
Is it possible that there is some other factor besides the heat causing the battery problems? Possibly different manufactures? I've been electric for nearly 10 years. I believe I have only used 3 brands of batteries, Gens Ace, Grayson Gold and Turnigy Zippy. All have worked well for me, they have all given me 2-3 years of hard service.
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#22
I had/have a mixture of battery sizes and manufacturers.

I based my methodology on manufacturing processes and the chemical processes inside the battery as well as its physical construction as stated in various documents supplied by the manufacturers and researchers.

The manufacturer's recommendations across numerous manufacturers are that the TEMPERATURE of the cells has the greatest detrimental effect upon battery life. This temperature was excessive heat and there was absolutely NO mention of lower temperature limit excepting a general range recommendation.

The aforementioned and much debated procedure maintains the cells at the lower range of the temperatures AND reduces the battery;s call temperatures so that the internally generated heat range is/can be, far greater without damage!

The puffing of battery packs is a result of cell de-lamination caused by EXCESSIVE heat and the damage is irreversible, but avoidable.

Please note that the manufacturers also state that physical restriction of the de-lamination process by fitting cells in rigid containers can and does enhance cell life and can maintain capacity over a longer life period. I am not going to apply any physical restraints like a container around my batteries as I do not want the extra weight and I will not be using a Vice when charging.

If you wish to invalidate this then get a large EDF with a 150+ Amp ESC and a 6S battery to suit. take it out to the field on a 40 degree day let the battery reach ambient and then flatten the battery with 3 minutes of full throttle flight. Do that for a couple of weeks and then you will see where battery cell temperature management has its real value and also the cost of replacement batteries.

Whilst i might agree that you do not experience the problems I can assure you that others do and at my local club I have a number of converts. The converts made their choice to try the method for themselves and now will not go back to buying a new battery pack every 2 or 3 months!

I invite you to actually try it! If it makes no difference then OK for you but if it does then let us know!

have fun!!
 

Merv

Well-known member
#23
The puffing of battery packs is a result of cell de-lamination caused by EXCESSIVE heat
I agree that excessive heat will destroy a Lipo. I'm suggesting that 30C (84F) is not excessive, that's normal. Excessive heat is, 170F (77C), most often caused by drawing too many amps from a pack. The pack will get so hot you do not want hold it. There are many other things that will cause excessive heat in a pack, over discharging, charging too fast, over 1C, charging too soon, not giving them time to cool after flight, etc. My packs may get warm but never get so hot that you do not want to hold it. My buddies all use expensive packs, their pack will puff far more than mine. I'm not the one who is having trouble. I think lipos in the fridge is a symptom of a problem not the solution.
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#24
A cell rising to 77 degrees from 40 will attain that temperature faster than if the pack initial temperature is around 10 degrees. The cells in the centre and denied any air to dissipate their heat normally rise far quicker than the cells which you can easily judge the temperature of. That others puff their batteries sooner than you is indicative of their having an issue which you do not suffer from. I dare not say that they are doing anything WRONG I would say that their circumstances are different. Take you challenge of their doing wrong directly to their faces and i am sure they will inform you where you can go with your opinions!

That you do not have any issue is good news for you but not everyone has the same level of self professed perfection that you espouse. Here the summer ambient can exceed 40 degrees regularly and 30 degrees is considered as a cool spell. We fly hard and long with a myriad of models and skill levels. Whether you can except that persons who are not as perfect as you claim might find that refrigeration of their batteries can and does extend their time between replacements is irrelevant to this post!

This post is for those who are not perfect in the handling of their batteries or those who do not live in the same climate as some others and yet find that their battery life seems rather short or less than otherwise expected.

Do the detractors even wish to try or evaluate the topic of this thread? I doubt it but rather seem to judge others who might, based upon the levels of perfection the detractors seem to have achieved. If this post or thread, aimed at the less than perfect and to aid their battery management, upsets those who have no such issues and are even unwilling to do any actual evaluation for themselves, it is too bad! If it helps a single person on this planet of over 7 Billion persons then this thread is justified.

A better use of energies for those who refuse to even evaluate something before trying to shout it down would be to do their own posts on their methods of battery management in ambient temperatures of -10 degrees Celsius to over 50 Degrees Celsius, and the massive discharge currents of some models. I would be interested to see such a thread. It might be helpful to some, myself included!

For other readers of this thread I suggest you try it and if it works for you GREAT and if not what have you lost?

Have fun!
 

Merv

Well-known member
#25
but not everyone has the same level of self professed perfection that you espouse.
I have not espoused perfection. I’m here to learn and share my experience. To help others who are having trouble & receive help for my problems. Respectful, @Hai-Lee, I’m not the one who has the problem with my lipos going bad, I have no need to put my lipos in a fridge. Again I apologize for offending you.
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#26
I have not espoused perfection. I’m here to learn and share my experience. To help others who are having trouble & receive help for my problems. Respectful, @Hai-Lee, I’m not the one who has the problem with my lipos going bad, I have no need to put my lipos in a fridge. Again I apologize for offending you.
You miss understand the reason for the original post. it was not for those who are free of battery problems but for those who have battery problems and nothing seems to be working for them.

I believe if someone has a problem or does something i do not understand I let it go until I have done the required research. Where I cannot add to a topic, or it is not actually dangerous, I believe that it is best for me to abstain from comment. There are thousands of posts in relation to modifications, designs, and so on that I do not think will work or could be a disaster but I learned a long time ago that EXPERIENCE is a far better teacher than a million mentors!

Whilst you have no use for such a methodology try suggesting a "Crazy Idea" to those in your club who do have problems but again let them know it is for them to assess its usefulness in their application. If it works for them they will definitely listen to you in future and if not it changes nothing!

I am not really offended by your posts but rather I fear that others might be SHAMED into not trying something that could save them some heartache and even serious money long term.

All is sweet!

Have fun!
 

Bricks

Well-known member
#27
No matter how you store or use your batteries they are consumables and will only last so long before replacement will be needed. Mostly use common sense with how you handle them. Me personally do not baby my batteries I try and take care of them but do not go to extremes in either direction or at least try not to.
 

Brett_N

Well-known member
#28
I got a cheap yard-sale mini fridge, drilled a hole in the side of it for my charger power wire, and store and charge all of my batteries in it.

I keep them around 50*F
 

Merv

Well-known member
#29
No matter how you store or use your batteries they are consumables and will only last so long before replacement will be needed. Mostly use common sense with how you handle them. Me personally do not baby my batteries I try and take care of them but do not go to extremes in either direction or at least try not to.
I agree, the point I'm trying to make is. If you "have to" store you batteries in the fridge to keep them form over heating, there most likely something else going on. You may have a problem and not realize it. If it were me having the problem, I would want to fix it. And I would want someone to tell me I had a problem and help me fix it. But some just want to stick their head in the sand, or batteries in the fridge and ignore the problem.
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#30
I agree, the point I'm trying to make is. If you "have to" store you batteries in the fridge to keep them form over heating, there most likely something else going on. You may have a problem and not realize it. If it were me having the problem, I would want to fix it. And I would want someone to tell me I had a problem and help me fix it. But some just want to stick their head in the sand, or batteries in the fridge and ignore the problem.
Firstly the storage of the batteries in the refrigerator is a battery cell temperature management method only. As for something else likely going on yes there is in my case I live in a location where the climate is far different and hotter than most of those who are bleating that it is a waste of time. Mind you those same persons will not evaluate the claim or do any proper research themselves.

Yet another case of if "it doesn't effect me then it is not a problem", combined with the true head in the sand attitude mentioned by some here. Not only did I investigate the heating and puffing issues I was having with batteries from a number of different manufacturers, (mind you prior to any refrigerator usage), I also investigated the rise in temperature and internal resistance values of the individual cells in the battery packs overtime as well as self discharge properties at various temperatures.

There is a somewhat unhelpful attitude in some that they do things perfectly and that anyone who does different is wrong, has a problem, or is possibly even mentally defective. Such an attitude never adds anything positive to a discussion and at times can be destructive in itself. If something is proposed or mentioned that you do not like, understand, or believe is applicable to your situation, does that mean it has no application for any other user in the entire world?

This forum has a worldwide reach. This post was aimed at those who live in different climates and have far far lower incomes than some others. If the refrigerator is not for you, then lucky you, but to dismiss and attempt to belittle something you refuse to evaluate or obviously do not understand is a sad reflection upon your personal attitude and the forum.

Try it if you are having issues and if it works for you then good and if it doesn't that is good also but at least try something before you dismiss it outright.

Have fun!
 

d8veh

Well-known member
#31
I'm not convinced that puffing is only due to heat from an external source, like ambient temperature. If you run any pack down to zero volts or near, then charge them, the probability is that they'll puff.

I've been using lipos for a very long time on electric bicycles, where we run them at much lower currents (C-rate), like 30A for a 25C 20Ah 12S pack, so self-heating is not such a problem and our weather in the UK is certainly not enough to do a lipo any harm. I've had a load of them puff up - normally when I forgot to switch something off, so they got run right down. It wasn't the motor left switched on (obviously) so the drain rate would have been pretty low. When I realised my mistake (too late) I tried to recover some by charging at 0.2C, but they still puffed.

When you run a battery right down and continue to draw a reasonable current, something changes and it starts to heat up and puff until it vents, so one could argue that heating causes them to puff.

I heard that when lipos are shagged, dendrites form inside that cause internal shorts. In this case you would get self-discharge and one would assume that they'd heat up when charging; however, that would mean that the internal resistance would be lower than normal, which doesn't stack up with the internal resistance going down when worn out unless there's a tipping point.

Rather than a fridge, some guys in the UK prefer to use one of these:

https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy...9URhoCfaYQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&___store=en_us

This guy here says that the optimum operating range for a lipo is 40C - 50C, and maximum of 60C, though he uses them for racing and doesn't qualify what he means by optimum. He probably means optimum power.

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?2105184-Here-s-my-LiPo-heater-box
 
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Merv

Well-known member
#32
Yet another case of if "it doesn't effect me then it is not a problem", combined with the true head in the sand attitude mentioned by some here. Not only did I investigate the heating and puffing issues I was having with batteries from a number of different manufacturers,
Have you considered that not everyone has investigated the "heating an puffing issues", that others may be indeed have a problem that needs to be fixed. It sounds like you are insisting that because batteries in the fridge is the answer for you that it is the answer for everyone.

@Prithul began this thread because he was have trouble with ambient temperature of 30C, which not very warm. But the ONLY solution you are willing to explore is a fridge, just because it worked for you.
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#33
The puffing of the cells is temperature related and is caused by not only the attempted expansion of the plates of the cell but also by the gassing of the gel electrolyte at high temperature. Here the ambient temperature in summer can easily exceed 40 degrees Celsius in the shade. Hard cased packs can have less swelling as there is a physical resistance to the cells expanding but on flight packs there is no such hard case normally.

The warming of cells in some climates will enhance their peak current capabilities though honestly that is not the original topic of this thread.

If you are unwilling or unable to evaluate the claims made for refrigeration then I challenge you to warm your batteries to 40 degrees Celsius and keep them so that they never drop below 40 Degrees at any time and then evaluate the life of your batteries. You will find a marked decrease in battery cycle life as well as increased swelling and a rapid rise in internal resistance. If you manage to find a badly puffed battery pack try refrigerating it and note the reduction of the gas pressure internally in the pack.

If you are unwilling to evaluate a claim then you are not arguing from any point of knowledge or experience but rather what someone else claims somewhere on the internet. We all KNOW that everything on the Internet MUST be true if it agrees with our prejudiced point of view:rolleyes:! If we cannot find what agrees with our point of view, we must keep looking as all points of view are available if you search for them!

Test the idea or let others have the freedom to evaluate it for themselves. It is the height of ignorance and intolerance to attempt to ridicule anything that you have not actually assessed for yourself! People had Galileo arrested for his work and Columbus was ridiculed when he dared say that the world was round! Even though the detractors were in the vast majority history proved them wrong!

Let others decide for themselves if this has application for their situation!

Have fun!
 

Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#34
Have you considered that not everyone has investigated the "heating an puffing issues", that others may be indeed have a problem that needs to be fixed. It sounds like you are insisting that because batteries in the fridge is the answer for you that it is the answer for everyone.

@Prithul began this thread because he was have trouble with ambient temperature of 30C, which not very warm. But the ONLY solution you are willing to explore is a fridge, just because it worked for you.
Yes it works for me and for most others at my local club, (shared ambient conditions).

The thread was about if storing batteries in a refrigerator would help reduce the battery storage issues for a particular member.

The responses so far are effectively;

1. Yes and it works well for me personally and those in my area based upon the work we have done in that area.

2, No! You have some other problem. We will not help you discover that problem as we do not have the problem and refuse to even contemplate any methodologies that might help you with your problem! We reserve the right to ridicule anything that we do not do or understand!

If you have any alternate SOLUTION to his problem please post it as a positive method to assist rather than offer no solution and only ridicule! The people who post on the forum are seeking help and to say that they are somehow foolish and offer no solution does nothing but boost you post count!

I await your positive contribution to this thread!

Have fun!
 

Bricks

Well-known member
#35
Guys that run racing boats actually heat there lipo`s to 120 F to get better performance from there batteries and from what I have read with no ill affects. Lipo`s will be lower resistance and be able to put out more amps when warmed up. So I don`t know for sure what the answer is. They claim they see more puffing from taking a cold battery at ambient temperature and just hit the throttle not giving the internal temperature of the battery to come up.

If your reference of storing in a fridge what about all the electric cars down south sitting in a parking lot in the sun I would bet my bottom dollar they get way hotter then 104F. Not saying good or bad just throwing out an example.
 
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Hai-Lee

Old and Bold RC PILOT
#36
Guys that run racing boats actually heat there lipo`s to 120 F to get better performance from there batteries and from what I have read with no ill affects. Lipo`s will be lower resistance and be able to put out more amps when warmed up. So I don`t know for sure what the answer is. They claim they see more puffing from taking a cold battery at ambient temperature and just hit the throttle not giving the internal temperature of the battery to come up.
From what I understand the boat and car battery packs are generally hard cased which reduces the puffing anyway due to the simple fact that the case pressure helps reduce and halt the delamination of the battery cells up to a point at least. As the current ability increases with temperature, (up to a point), and the case tends to reduce the ability of the ambient conditions to warm the pack quickly a cold sealed and very high current pack will warm the inner cells first and rapidly hence the damage they may be trying to describe.

The simple fact that I do not take the refrigerator to the field seems to have been missed in those arguing the negative! When I arrive at the field the average battery pack temperature has risen to normally around 20 degrees Celsius. By the time I have finished flying with a battery it has risen in temperature to around 40 degrees Celsius. By the time I have returned home all of the battery packs have settled to ambient temperature.

I then cool them prior to charging them. I never charge a very warm or hot battery pack. After charging I return them to the refrigerator to remove any unwanted heat which was caused by the charging process. I do tend to leave them fully charged in the refrigerator for storage but then no battery is in long term storage. I NEVER allow my battery packs to freeze or even get close to it.

Since I started to control the cell temperatures of my batteries, (when not flying them), I have not lost a single battery to swelling and only one to an increase in internal resistance, (it had been crashed and dented a few times though). I have not purchased a replacement battery for over a year now and I fly very often!

As per my last post if you have a positive and helpful post by all means I am open to anything that is better but I WILL evaluate anything proposed before i adopt it! I use soft pack flight LiPos and not those built for Cars, Boats, or Quads!

Have fun!
 

Merv

Well-known member
#37
2, No! You have some other problem. We will not help you discover that problem as we do not have the problem and refuse to even contemplate any methodologies that might help you with your problem! We reserve the right to ridicule anything that we do not do or understand!
That is were you are wrong. I'm suggesting there may be a problem, not to ridicule them, but to help them discover the problem and fix it. Hopefully that is the goal of everyone here.

In this thread, which post did I say I would not help find a problem or a solution? In which of my post did I ridicule anyone?
 

JTarmstr

Well-known member
#39
So basically fridge is ok, heat is bad, take care of your batteries. Airplane batteries since they have no solid case probably get damaged easily and eventually wear out, probably faster than a Car or Boat battery.
 
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Merv

Well-known member
#40
So basically fridge is ok, heat is bad, take care of your batteries.
I have nothing against putting your pack in a fridge. It may solve some problems, it's just not the answer to every problem. We should be willing to find the cause of the problem. There are many reasons for a pack to be damaged, excessive heat is just one of them. The heat that causes damage is far above ambient temperatures. Excessive heat is not warm, it's so hot you can not hold the pack in you hand. The solution, find out what is causing you pack to get that hot. Sometimes it is something we did, sometimes is a the fault of the manufacturer. Like the cell phone that would just burst in to flames a few years ago. A fridge is just not the ONLY solution one should consider.
 
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