Another Noob Help Thread.

[Craftydan]

Do I need the Naze32 breakout cable? What about the esc programmer?

Breakout cable? If you're good at following pinouts and making your own cables, no, but otherwise it makes the process simpler.

ESC programmer, like a card? No. They only change settings on the matching ESCs -- they dont' really reflash the ROM.

If you want to get into reflashed ESCs and are cheap/DIY enough and aren't afraid of a little electronics, you'll probably need something quite different, soemwhat complicated, and it'll depend on the ESC you're trying to reflash . . .

Otherwise, it should fly OK on a fixed wing ESC (do nothing -- the easiest solution) and pre-flashed ESCs with Multirotor ROMS aren't hard to find (buy something better -- the second easiest solution )

 

[Spook_]

Breakout cable? If you're good at following pinouts and making your own cables, no, but otherwise it makes the process simpler.

ESC programmer, like a card? No. They only change settings on the matching ESCs -- they dont' really reflash the ROM.

If you want to get into reflashed ESCs and are cheap/DIY enough and aren't afraid of a little electronics, you'll probably need something quite different, soemwhat complicated, and it'll depend on the ESC you're trying to reflash . . .

Otherwise, it should fly OK on a fixed wing ESC (do nothing -- the easiest solution) and pre-flashed ESCs with Multirotor ROMS aren't hard to find (buy something better -- the second easiest solution )

In that case I think Ill be fine. With a 1300 3s how long of flight times should I be expecting?

 

[Craftydan]

250 frame and 2206 motors?

I'd expect 4-6 minutes depending on how agressive you fly and how much safety margin you leave on the pack.

 

[Twitchity]

Do I need the Naze32 breakout cable? What about the esc programmer?

I use the bare minimum when it comes to wiring on my Naze32. I should really connect a buzzer, but I can't find a good spot to put one so I just make sure my flights are around the 5 minute mark.

If you go with the quad ESC pack from RotorGeeks I would use the one ESC w/BEC on motor 4, and the remaining ESCs without the BEC for M1, M2, and M3. You don't have to wire it up this way, but I like having the ESC for M4 to have the BEC voltage so I can connect it to the M5 and M6 spot on my Naze for it to receive power/ground. Pop the connectors out form the plastic housing for the three ESCs without the BEC and put them all in one connector so they are in the correct order when plugged into the board. This will reduce the amount of connections you'll need to make and clean up the clutter as well. Here's a picture from my old quad. I don't like seeing wires, so this configuration works out great for me. Most frames also have a hole in the frame under the FC so it makes this connection quite convenient. All yellow wires are signal, red is power, brown is ground.

If you go the satellite receiver route you can also solder the 3 wires directly to the Naze32 and use a piece of double-sided tape to hold the receiver in place on top of the Naze. This would be the bare minimum for wiring you would need to get the quad in the air, and you won't need any additional cables other that the ones that already come on the ESCs or provided with the satellite receiver. I would assume the Orange Satellite receiver connects the same way, but I can't verify that as I haven't used one (the signal/power/ground wire locations may be different between the two).

If you plan to run a voltage buzzer you'll need two wires to supply battery power to the Naze32, and then two more to run wires to the buzzer if you mount it away from the board.

 

[Spook_]

I use the bare minimum when it comes to wiring on my Naze32. I should really connect a buzzer, but I can't find a good spot to put one so I just make sure my flights are around the 5 minute mark.

If you go with the quad ESC pack from RotorGeeks I would use the one ESC w/BEC on motor 4, and the remaining ESCs without the BEC for M1, M2, and M3. You don't have to wire it up this way, but I like having the ESC for M4 to have the BEC voltage so I can connect it to the M5 and M6 spot on my Naze for it to receive power/ground. Pop the connectors out form the plastic housing for the three ESCs without the BEC and put them all in one connector so they are in the correct order when plugged into the board. This will reduce the amount of connections you'll need to make and clean up the clutter as well. Here's a picture from my old quad. I don't like seeing wires, so this configuration works out great for me. Most frames also have a hole in the frame under the FC so it makes this connection quite convenient. All yellow wires are signal, red is power, brown is ground.

If you go the satellite receiver route you can also solder the 3 wires directly to the Naze32 and use a piece of double-sided tape to hold the receiver in place on top of the Naze. This would be the bare minimum for wiring you would need to get the quad in the air, and you won't need any additional cables other that the ones that already come on the ESCs or provided with the satellite receiver. I would assume the Orange Satellite receiver connects the same way, but I can't verify that as I haven't used one (the signal/power/ground wire locations may be different between the two).

If you plan to run a voltage buzzer you'll need two wires to supply battery power to the Naze32, and then two more to run wires to the buzzer if you mount it away from the board.

After reading that about 5 times I think I got it, right now I'm thinking it might be best to go find a build log similar to what I'm doing and read it to make sure I have everything. I would really hate to order my stuff only to have it arrive and realize I missed something.

 

[jhitesma]

I'm a little late to reply...but if you're still considering the emax frame I belive BestHobbyMall is the best place to get them from currently, they're also the only source of repair parts that I know of:

http://www.besthobbymall.com/night-...-fiber-quadcopter-aircraft-frame-combo-1.html

<$150 with emax 2204 motors, emax ESC's and Naze32. not a bad deal at all IMHO and I'm very happy with mine even though I only have the 1806 motors and the hybrid G10/CF frame instead of the new all CF frame.

<$130 for the frame I have, and barely $120 if you drop down to the 1806 motors on the frame I'm flying.

You'd probably also want to get a power board and you'll need a RX...

The 1806 motors move it pretty well and are a great choice for a beginner. The 2204's have more power for sure...but if you're just getting started you won't be disappointed with the 1806's.

 

[C0d3M0nk3y]

I did something similar to Twitchity on my last build, except I still pointed the pins out so I can get to them with the FC mounted in place.

 

[Spook_]

So here are my two options

Pick n&#8217; Choose:
Frame: Zmr250 from MMR $38
Motors: Cobra 2204 2300kv 4 x $20.99 = $83.96
ESC's: Rotorgeeks 12A BLHeli ESC V4 Pack $56
FCB: AcroNaze32 $24

Subtotal: $201.96

Emax250(NightHawk?) Bundle with equivalent motors and FCB:
Found here: http://www.besthobbymall.com/night-hawk-250-pro-v2-all-carbon-fiber-quadcopter-aircraft-frame-combo-1.html

Subtotal: $146.14

Now I understand I'm going to need a receiver of some kind so we can add $10 to be safe. And another $40 for batteries. And finally we have to add $30 for misc hardware and props.

So the totals are:

Pick N' Choose: $281.96
EMAX(Nighthawk?) Bundle: $226.14

It's ~$60 difference. Is there any reason to purchase the more expensive electronics? (ie: quality)

I have a PDB coming from a certain @William A who was nice enough to gift me one!
Let me know if I missed anything!

 

[jhitesma]

I haven't fired them up yet but I have Cobra 2204's for my Twitchity hex...and even though I haven't powered them up yet I feel safe saying they're far higher quality motors than the emax. They're more substantial which helps them shed heat and hold up in crashes. I'm also not a big fan of the CW/CCW threads on the emax - I prefer just having everything with normal threads and using nylocs to hold my props. The Cobra motors also protect their wires better. Just spinning them by hand they don't feel any smoother than the emax...but they do feel more "solid" and have bigger bearings (though here I'm comparing 1806 emax to 2204 Cobra so it's not a 1:1 comparison.)

If you can afford them I would definitely go with Cobra motors over emax.

As for the ESC's. The emax ESC's work and are dirt cheap...but they aren't great. They have both P and N fets and are a bit slow so they can't run damped light mode (regenerative braking). Their default settings are also horrible for multis (they make motors sound obnoxious due to the low PWM rate and they have a LVC enabled which can cause you to fall from the sky.) Easily fixed with some reprogramming...but still a bit of a hassle.

BestHobby mall's Naze is probably a knock off at that price...but I doubt you'd notice any difference in performance.

As for the frames...there are things I like about both. I think the emax frame is a little more sturdy - I've crashed mine hard and even with the G10/CF hybrid material I've yet to break anything on it. I've lost a few screws but that's about it. I've heard of a number of people breaking arms on the ZMR frames...but I do like the larger top deck on the ZMR that gives more room for FPV gear.

They're both great setups that you'll have a blast with. One thing I'd suggest is leaving a big budget for props - buying them bulk is the way to go because if you're having fun flying these hard you will go through quite a few of them

 

[Spook_]

I haven't fired them up yet but I have Cobra 2204's for my Twitchity hex...and even though I haven't powered them up yet I feel safe saying they're far higher quality motors than the emax. They're more substantial which helps them shed heat and hold up in crashes. I'm also not a big fan of the CW/CCW threads on the emax - I prefer just having everything with normal threads and using nylocs to hold my props. The Cobra motors also protect their wires better. Just spinning them by hand they don't feel any smoother than the emax...but they do feel more "solid" and have bigger bearings (though here I'm comparing 1806 emax to 2204 Cobra so it's not a 1:1 comparison.)

If you can afford them I would definitely go with Cobra motors over emax.

As for the ESC's. The emax ESC's work and are dirt cheap...but they aren't great. They have both P and N fets and are a bit slow so they can't run damped light mode (regenerative braking). Their default settings are also horrible for multis (they make motors sound obnoxious due to the low PWM rate and they have a LVC enabled which can cause you to fall from the sky.) Easily fixed with some reprogramming...but still a bit of a hassle.

BestHobby mall's Naze is probably a knock off at that price...but I doubt you'd notice any difference in performance.

As for the frames...there are things I like about both. I think the emax frame is a little more sturdy - I've crashed mine hard and even with the G10/CF hybrid material I've yet to break anything on it. I've lost a few screws but that's about it. I've heard of a number of people breaking arms on the ZMR frames...but I do like the larger top deck on the ZMR that gives more room for FPV gear.

They're both great setups that you'll have a blast with. One thing I'd suggest is leaving a big budget for props - buying them bulk is the way to go because if you're having fun flying these hard you will go through quite a few of them

I'm tempted to go with Pick N' Choose at this point. I'd much rather only have to buy parts once even if it may be more expensive short term. Thoughts?

 

[jhitesma]

Unless a bundle gives a great deal I'm usually not a fan. Though I do like to buy from as few sources as possible to keep shipping costs down.

However reading this thread: http://forum.flitetest.com/showthread.php?15067-ZMR250-Quad-Build-Log-My-first-quad-build

I just learned one big drawback of the ZMR frame compared to the Emax/Nighthawk frame. The emax frame has holes in the bottom plate that allow you to access the screws that attach the standoffs for the top section without having to take the bottom apart:



See the larger holes with nothing in them near the ends of each arm? Those are to access the screws for the top section. The last two are on the bit that sticks out so they're accessible anyway. The ZMR apparently has 8 standoffs instead of 6 and once the bottom is together those screws aren't accessible anymore. To me that's a huge negative as I've had them come loose and check them before each flight. Plus it makes taking the top apart for repairs and upgrades very easy. I haven't had the bottom of mine where the ESC's and PDB are apart other than once and that was just so I could add more wires off the PDB for my FPV gear after initial test flights without it.

It's a fairly minor thing, but IMHO makes a big difference in how easy the setup is to work on.

 

[Spook_]

Unless a bundle gives a great deal I'm usually not a fan. Though I do like to buy from as few sources as possible to keep shipping costs down.

However reading this thread: http://forum.flitetest.com/showthread.php?15067-ZMR250-Quad-Build-Log-My-first-quad-build

I just learned one big drawback of the ZMR frame compared to the Emax/Nighthawk frame. The emax frame has holes in the bottom plate that allow you to access the screws that attach the standoffs for the top section without having to take the bottom apart:

View attachment 39441

See the larger holes with nothing in them near the ends of each arm? Those are to access the screws for the top section. The last two are on the bit that sticks out so they're accessible anyway. The ZMR apparently has 8 standoffs instead of 6 and once the bottom is together those screws aren't accessible anymore. To me that's a huge negative as I've had them come loose and check them before each flight. Plus it makes taking the top apart for repairs and upgrades very easy. I haven't had the bottom of mine where the ESC's and PDB are apart other than once and that was just so I could add more wires off the PDB for my FPV gear after initial test flights without it.

It's a fairly minor thing, but IMHO makes a big difference in how easy the setup is to work on.

I can get the ZMR http://multirotormania.com/frames/94-100-carbon-fiber-250mm-mini-frame.html

Or the Emax http://multirotormania.com/mini-quad/659-night-hawk-100-carbon-fiber-mini-quadcopter-frame.html

Is the $22 worth it?

 

[Twitchity]

For some reason I picture the ZMR being more race oriented and the EMAX being more of a casual flyer; but I'm sure they will perform just the same. This is a tough call as they are both nice frames from what I can gather. At this point I would personally buy the ZMR based off it its looks (I like it better than the EMAX) and there seems to be a strong following behind that frame. But I also haven't really heard anything bad about the EMAX from people who own one.

It's a tough call. If you want to customize it further down the road, I would get the one that will provide you with the most options. I know there is a company that's selling a PDB with a lot of features (integrated OSD, voltage regulator, buzzer, etc) for the ZMR frame. You'd have to purchase those items separately from the PDB, but you can just solder it right up if you wanted them.

I'm probably just making it harder for you to decide though :black_eyed: But I will say you do have a lot more patience than I do regarding this matter.

 

[Spook_]

For some reason I picture the ZMR being more race oriented and the EMAX being more of a casual flyer; but I'm sure they will perform just the same. This is a tough call as they are both nice frames from what I can gather. At this point I would personally buy the ZMR based off it its looks (I like it better than the EMAX) and there seems to be a strong following behind that frame. But I also haven't really heard anything bad about the EMAX from people who own one.

It's a tough call. If you want to customize it further down the road, I would get the one that will provide you with the most options. I know there is a company that's selling a PDB with a lot of features (integrated OSD, voltage regulator, buzzer, etc) for the ZMR frame. You'd have to purchase those items separately from the PDB, but you can just solder it right up if you wanted them.

I'm probably just making it harder for you to decide though :black_eyed: But I will say you do have a lot more patience than I do regarding this matter.

At this point I'm probably splitting hairs I'm just trying to make sure I don't to anything silly that will ruin my first experience with a quad. Can the EMAX run 6" props and are they even a big deal?

 

[jhitesma]

You'd be happy with either so it's kind of a hard thing to answer. Personally, unlike Twitchity I prefer the look of the emax...it just looks racier and more thought to me while the ZMR just "Looks" quick and dirty in my eyes. The shorter top plate on the emax just gives it a more compact performance oriented look to me while the ZMR looks like a minivan in my eyes

As for how big of a difference the screw access I pointed out is...Again it's a personal thing. I hate opening up that bottom section, my ESC's are so nicely packed I just don't want to mess with that area if I can at all help it. So for me being able to easily take the whole top including the standoffs on and off is much appreciated. Things are tight in there for my fingers so having all of that out of the way really is a bonus for me.

The emax will fit 6" props, in fact I've never even flown 5" on mine. 6" give a big performance boost if you can fit them. Starting with 5" is definitely a good call - but once you go 6" you probably won't want to go back to 5" very often. (I have been having some fun with 5" on my acro quad but just because I tossed them on for a friend who's only flown toy quads to try and I haven't bothered to swap them since we haven't broken them yet....6" do seem easier to break - maybe the extra length maybe just because they're nicer stiffer props. But 5" props really do feel like training wheels after getting used to the kick of 6".)

 

[Spook_]

Ok one last quick question before I make my decision. Are PDB's that are designed for the quad frame worth it? I ask because I can find some for the ZMR but none for the EMAX.

 

[Twitchity]

To me the looks are the other way around... The EMAX looks like a pickup and the ZMR looks like a sports car

I think the big thing you could do to ruin your experience is buying cheap electronics. My very first tri I tried to build it with a cheap FC, DT700 motors, and Turnigy Plush ESCs. The FC required a lot more programming than I was capable of at that time so I ended up switching it out for a KK board. While this board worked fine I began to have problems with my motors/ESCs. Once I replaced those with some Afro ESCs (not recommended unless you flash them from what I now hear) and some SunnySky motors, I was finally able to have a copter that I could keep in the air. This whole process took several months and many frustrating nights before I had an airworthy craft, and it was all because I tried to cut cost and get budget hardware. Many people use the DT700/750 motors with great success, but I didn't feel they were a good motor for a novice builder.

I guess what I'm trying to get at here is, if you buy quality parts from the beginning you'll be much happier and probably save money in the end. That's the reason why I mentioned the SunnySky/Cobra 2204 motors, nice ESCs that have been tested and are configurable, and a well known and supported FC. I'm now waiting on three, yes three, replacement ZMR 1804 motors that I ordered from Banggood... I ordered four for my new mini quad build figuring I'd give them a shot and I was severely disappointed in the quality. One motor is great, the other three have a lot of travel in the motor shaft and vibrate horribly. Below is the video I sent to Banggood's customer service who agreed to send me three new motors. If this was my first build and that happened, I would probably have gotten very discouraged with the hobby. I have actually ordered 4 EMAX 1804 motors off ebay for this frame, so I'm not sure what I'll do with the ZMRs once the replacements arrive. As you can probably tell I don't have much faith that I'll receive 3 good motors... I'll probably build some swapable mini plane for these motors, or if I get three total good motors maybe another mini mini tri with 4" rotors...

So morale of the story/rant, if you buy nice equipment from the beginning you won't regret it and it gives you the option to easily upgrade with experience.

 

[Twitchity]

Ok one last quick question before I make my decision. Are PDB's that are designed for the quad frame worth it? I ask because I can find some for the ZMR but none for the EMAX.

I personally really like frame specific PDB as it makes the build a lot easier. These boards typically have more features than your standard PDB; just take a look at the Team Legit PDB for the ZMR. It has a spot for just about everything you could want to add to the quad right on the PDB.

Now if you're just using the PDB to supply power to the FC and ESCs then a standard universal PDB would work just as well, but the build won't be as pretty. Stuffing wires between these little frames can be a chore sometimes so some form of a PDB would be a good edition. It's up to you to determine if the features the PDB designed for the quad are worth the price, or if a cheap ~$5 PDB will be all you need.

My vote (if the price isn't outrageous) is for a PDB designed for the frame.

 

[Spook_]

So I'm leaning ZMR at this point unless there is a pdb for the emax

Edit: Anyone know if this will fit the Emax? http://www.getfpv.com/multi-rotor-frames/xhover/xhover-mxp230-power-distribution-board.html

 

[Twitchity]

I haven't been able to find a PDB for the EMAX frame just yet, at least not one specific to that frame.