Possibly but what kind of distance is realistic? Given my example above you're looking at a endurance distance of 5-8+ MILES. How many laps is that?
Flite Fest 2017 International Air Races
- Thread starter willsonman
- Start date
Possibly but what kind of distance is realistic? Given my example above you're looking at a endurance distance of 5-8+ MILES. How many laps is that?
FAI-F1D
Free Flight Indoorist
I'd much prefer a set number of laps per typical pylon racing. It's easier that way and it prevents ties. You will have ties with a "most laps in 2 minutes" format because it's impossible to count partial laps. The setup Wilsonman is converging on should provide good safety, and we should have a fun time with it. I agree with him that cages are probably unnecessary, but headgear is. A proper format of the race course will the possibility of planes straying into spotters or the crowd fairly unlikely anyway, which is the whole point.
The 4s voltage restriction sounds reasonable to me. I'd recommend against a capacity cap for the all out speed segment because all that will do is push people to find the highest C rated pack they can find. I'm sure Revolectrix would like the business, of course.
To those looking for recommended setups, ecalc is your friend. The subscription is only $5/year. Or you could troll nerdnic's threads for recommended setups. Be sure to respect the RPM limits of the propeller you select...APC has page which lists those restrictions, and it's not hard to exceed them if you aren't careful.
The 4s voltage restriction sounds reasonable to me. I'd recommend against a capacity cap for the all out speed segment because all that will do is push people to find the highest C rated pack they can find. I'm sure Revolectrix would like the business, of course.
To those looking for recommended setups, ecalc is your friend. The subscription is only $5/year. Or you could troll nerdnic's threads for recommended setups. Be sure to respect the RPM limits of the propeller you select...APC has page which lists those restrictions, and it's not hard to exceed them if you aren't careful.
Maybe there should be separate threads to discuss each race. There is a thread discussing the design-off. There could be a thread discussing the speed challenge, and there could be a thread discussing the endurance race. It might help clarify the objectives of each, and we could look back at the first post as "rules" are adjusted until they become firm.
On the topic of the Bixler Endurance race... I wasn't understanding the idea of the pace plane, so thank you for clearing that up. I think, in principal, it sounds fun to have to stay ahead of the pace plane, keeps folks moving along. But it might be better to have folks follow the pace plane, so they don't just lap it to keep from stalling. Think about the challenge it would be to have to fly slower than, say, an Old Fogey!
And there are ways to keep the race from lasting hours, I think. Simply limit the "fuel." Keep everyone at a 1500 or less mAh. You could even limit both battery and cell - only a 3S 1000mAh. This really challenges a designer and pilot to maximize efficiency while maintaining enough energy to not just glide but fly reasonably fast.
This is a fun thought process. Keep it going, guys!
On the topic of the Bixler Endurance race... I wasn't understanding the idea of the pace plane, so thank you for clearing that up. I think, in principal, it sounds fun to have to stay ahead of the pace plane, keeps folks moving along. But it might be better to have folks follow the pace plane, so they don't just lap it to keep from stalling. Think about the challenge it would be to have to fly slower than, say, an Old Fogey!
And there are ways to keep the race from lasting hours, I think. Simply limit the "fuel." Keep everyone at a 1500 or less mAh. You could even limit both battery and cell - only a 3S 1000mAh. This really challenges a designer and pilot to maximize efficiency while maintaining enough energy to not just glide but fly reasonably fast.
This is a fun thought process. Keep it going, guys!
Maybe there should be separate threads to discuss each race. There is a thread discussing the design-off. There could be a thread discussing the speed challenge, and there could be a thread discussing the endurance race. It might help clarify the objectives of each, and we could look back at the first post as "rules" are adjusted until they become firm.
On the topic of the Bixler Endurance race... I wasn't understanding the idea of the pace plane, so thank you for clearing that up. I think, in principal, it sounds fun to have to stay ahead of the pace plane, keeps folks moving along. But it might be better to have folks follow the pace plane, so they don't just lap it to keep from stalling. Think about the challenge it would be to have to fly slower than, say, an Old Fogey!
And there are ways to keep the race from lasting hours, I think. Simply limit the "fuel." Keep everyone at a 1500 or less mAh. You could even limit both battery and cell - only a 3S 1000mAh. This really challenges a designer and pilot to maximize efficiency while maintaining enough energy to not just glide but fly reasonably fast.
This is a fun thought process. Keep it going, guys!
On the topic of the Bixler Endurance race... I wasn't understanding the idea of the pace plane, so thank you for clearing that up. I think, in principal, it sounds fun to have to stay ahead of the pace plane, keeps folks moving along. But it might be better to have folks follow the pace plane, so they don't just lap it to keep from stalling. Think about the challenge it would be to have to fly slower than, say, an Old Fogey!
And there are ways to keep the race from lasting hours, I think. Simply limit the "fuel." Keep everyone at a 1500 or less mAh. You could even limit both battery and cell - only a 3S 1000mAh. This really challenges a designer and pilot to maximize efficiency while maintaining enough energy to not just glide but fly reasonably fast.
This is a fun thought process. Keep it going, guys!
Just to clarify, because I think the discussion is still a bit muddy; My comment/suggestion for "most laps in X minutes" was for the Bixler race - which is primarily (trying to be) a distance endurance race.
The Furey Cup is the all-out speed pylon race that I think you're most concerned with (not that the other one won't have similar concerns). This one should follow standard pylon race formats - fixed number of laps, shortest time wins.
Honestly, I think we're uncovering a basic ugly truth; a true distance race needs to have more considerable length to it, and therefore will (probably) not be a very entertaining race to watch, for most people.
To really set the races apart, the Bixler Trophy needs to be a longer race, perhaps even 20-30 minutes. It doesn't have to be the same kind of "sit down, watch the whole thing" kind of race. It can be something people check back in with, seeing who is still in the air, etc.
By setting a time-limit, you are giving the racers/designers a clear goal, one that is not just about all-out speed. To win a max-distance race, you want to stay up for the entire time AND go the farthest (most laps); it's still a race, but it's one more of power-efficiency rather than power-power.
FAI-F1D
Free Flight Indoorist
Unfortunately no, that really is in reference to the all out speed event:
Without getting into the physics of it, the conclusions there are incorrect, and the resulting concept is flawed because all out speed depends on power-weight-drag at WOT whereas distance involves optimizing for the most efficient power settings, wing shape, etc. AND it's harder to score.
The solution to the distance, endurance race, has been presented--use a pace plane, and limit the battery size (perhaps relative to model weight to keep it fair). Want a short endurance race? Limit folks to a 3s 1000 and that will be that.
We are circling the same thing here. I'm saying is that the rules should not allow the same plane to win. Maybe no one else agrees with me, that's fine, but in my mind an endurance race and speed race SHOULD NOT have the same winner. However at our scale and available electronics I don't think this is outside of reality based on the proposed rules so far. I'm basing this off my experience with my preferred power setup at the 40" range. We aren't talking about full size planes or hotliners vs a thermal seeking DLG. We are narrowed in scope by the design limitations and then again by electronics avail.
Can a 1/6 scale plane even get proper CG with a 1000mah 3s?
FAI-F1D
Free Flight Indoorist
I seriously doubt that the same plane could win it. If it does, it'll be a function of pilot skill, and we cannot tweak the rules to impact pilot skill. The best pilots win, period. If someone wins both events, they probably deserve to. Or.....
We can't do anything about the electronics available. If someone is willing to spend the money on a Neu or Leomotion, then they're gonna have an edge in both events and there's nothing we can do about that. I for one find that a bit ridiculous, and if someone wants to spend that much on a DTFB build, then they can have the trophies with my blessing. They better have skills to match, though, because my low-budget build is going to be backed with the experience of flying some of the fastest small models in the world. I'm not the best pilot out there, but I do know how to fly seriously fast airplanes. Something tells me I'm not the only person with that experience.
Sure it can. Most of these models are going to be pretty small. If the model won't balance, then it's a function of the battery compartment not being where it needs to be.
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Aviator08
Flagstaff,AZ
Food for thought
USRA has been racing for a lot of years . http://www.usrainfo.org/
They race 35 lb. ( give or take ) aircraft; some of them well over 200 mph. They use a two pylon race course, and stand outside the race course. They DO wear hard hats ( as well as stand behind bales of hay. ) They DO maintain a safe distance from the spectators. The spotters ( called " picklers" ) are not in a cage, but DO stand back quite a distance.
If you ever get the chance to attend one of their events, it is well worth it.
USRA has been racing for a lot of years . http://www.usrainfo.org/
They race 35 lb. ( give or take ) aircraft; some of them well over 200 mph. They use a two pylon race course, and stand outside the race course. They DO wear hard hats ( as well as stand behind bales of hay. ) They DO maintain a safe distance from the spectators. The spotters ( called " picklers" ) are not in a cage, but DO stand back quite a distance.
If you ever get the chance to attend one of their events, it is well worth it.
FAI-F1D
Free Flight Indoorist
Some solid points. Well, I guess I'll modify my position to this: two pylons can be done safely. That is proven out what you've presented. I would, however, still prefer to be inside a 3 pylon course, if for no other reason than it makes me feel safer. It does require an extra spotter, although I don't think we'll have trouble getting those.
My thoughts on the 3-pylon course and spotters is that spotters would be asked to ensure that a pylon is passed appropriately. As in, the pilot should be flying at an altitude where you can visually see the airplane on the far side of the pylon. Perhaps that is asking too much of pilot skill?
I like the 2-pylon setup as well, mostly for the simplicity of layout. It's basically a powered F3F race, which BTW is probably faster or at least more dangerous given the size/mass of F3F gliders (+100oz easy).
All turns are away from people, and if we're racing together (as opposed to individual-timed like F3F) there's massive potential for midairs at the crossover.
What if one of the turns required some vertical component? Say, the left-side turn was a bit more "up and over", while the right-side turn was flat? It shouldn't be too hard to set up a couple poles with a banner stretched between them, so you have to go around the left pylon (turning right and up) and over the banner, then back down and around the right pylon (turning left). This would help separate the middle crossover.
All turns are away from people, and if we're racing together (as opposed to individual-timed like F3F) there's massive potential for midairs at the crossover.
What if one of the turns required some vertical component? Say, the left-side turn was a bit more "up and over", while the right-side turn was flat? It shouldn't be too hard to set up a couple poles with a banner stretched between them, so you have to go around the left pylon (turning right and up) and over the banner, then back down and around the right pylon (turning left). This would help separate the middle crossover.
FAI-F1D
Free Flight Indoorist
If I'm not mistaken, F3F uses parallel lines rather than pylons, so there's no actual crossover. The reason all turns are made away from the flight line is more for maintaining position in the wind rather than for safety.
Uhm....I don't know about everybody else, but that's a bit beyond my skill level. Honestly, banners or not, a crossover sounds like trouble to me, and I don't know of any pylon races that use such a thing.
FAI-F1D
Free Flight Indoorist
Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Way less pilot skill required for that than for some of the other ideas being tossed around, IMO.
Its also more of a... how close to the ground can you fly at that speed?
FAI-F1D
Free Flight Indoorist
Oh come now, we know the spectators come for the carnage!
Seriously though, I don't see a reason why the spotters can't tell compliance on a plane that's 30 ft up. I think most of us will be running 20-30 ft up for our own sakes.
jim_buxton
New member
I am glad to see all of this conversation taking place. The thing that concerns me is if we get to the point that as PILOTS we do not feel safe outside the course as Joshua is expressing, something is wrong. We will have many spectators outside the course, including many children and general public that are not fully aware of the safety risk. They need to be kept out of harms way as just hoping they are "paying attention" is not good enough. Flite Fest is in my opinion too important to risk an injury.
I am not trying to single out Nerdnic, I respect his work. However there was discussion about his Chipmunk flying at 100+ causing some concern. I want to point out right now that he replied with a classy post explaining he had a spotter and only did the high speed 4S runs only five times when he felt it was safe to do so. He also pointed out accurately that nobody approached him at the event to express concern, which is how it should have been handled.
I bring this up because I think that his speed planes cross over from the "spirit" of Flite Test designs into another level of high performance designs. I think that is a great next step for anyone that becomes accomplished with FT stuff and wants to go to the next level. I have zero problem with that. Joshua will understand that in Flying Aces (free flight scale) competition there is a clause about stating "in the Spirit" of FAC rules. This is a catch-all that I do not love about keeping purpose in perspective. Much as I dislike it, I think it applies here.
The "spirit" of Flite Test and this event I would think is to get people designing more Flite Test style airplanes that look like period racers, and perform like Flite Test airplanes with easy flying characteristics using inexpensive components. I think speed is irrelevant. As stated in another post I think seven or eight closely matched airplanes flying at scale-ish speeds (around 50 mph for 1/6th) sounds allot more appealing than speed rockets in the 100+ MPH range. Factor in the possibly of questionable components, less experienced pilots, and in an environment with potential for many airplanes in the air and RX issues in a spectator dense environment and there are concerns.
Joshua you have commented about a build that will not employ typical FT methods, and insane levels of power. I ask, is that "in the spirit" of what these guys are trying to accomplish at Flite Fest? I know we both come from hardcore competition backgrounds. We have both represented the U.S. on world Champs teams. I see Flite Fest as a gathering of like minded souls looking to have fun, not a competition. Who benefits from a design that is this far out of the intent of the event?
It is really up to Dan, Stephen and Wilsonman to decide. Perhaps I am speaking out of turn. I love this idea. I would love to see a bunch of golden age air racers flying around in loose formation together at scale speeds "playing with each other" doing some pretend races at safe (meaning typical FT design type) speeds. If the designs become so advanced that the event is so far away from the spectators for safety that it is never seen, what is the point? Does there really even need to be a "race" I think just flying some cool looking airplanes with some cool guys would be its own reward.
last (possibly unpopular as my others) comment. Why do we need to have a course feature that "increases the chance for collision"? I like my airplanes. I tend to spend a decent amount of time on them. I like them to look good. I like to fly them, and although I know crashes are always a possibility, I am always looking to avoid those occurrences! There already is a combat event for people that want to get rid of the airplanes.
Thoughts?
Love the event idea. Glad we are discussing options to make it great.
~Jim Buxton
I am not trying to single out Nerdnic, I respect his work. However there was discussion about his Chipmunk flying at 100+ causing some concern. I want to point out right now that he replied with a classy post explaining he had a spotter and only did the high speed 4S runs only five times when he felt it was safe to do so. He also pointed out accurately that nobody approached him at the event to express concern, which is how it should have been handled.
I bring this up because I think that his speed planes cross over from the "spirit" of Flite Test designs into another level of high performance designs. I think that is a great next step for anyone that becomes accomplished with FT stuff and wants to go to the next level. I have zero problem with that. Joshua will understand that in Flying Aces (free flight scale) competition there is a clause about stating "in the Spirit" of FAC rules. This is a catch-all that I do not love about keeping purpose in perspective. Much as I dislike it, I think it applies here.
The "spirit" of Flite Test and this event I would think is to get people designing more Flite Test style airplanes that look like period racers, and perform like Flite Test airplanes with easy flying characteristics using inexpensive components. I think speed is irrelevant. As stated in another post I think seven or eight closely matched airplanes flying at scale-ish speeds (around 50 mph for 1/6th) sounds allot more appealing than speed rockets in the 100+ MPH range. Factor in the possibly of questionable components, less experienced pilots, and in an environment with potential for many airplanes in the air and RX issues in a spectator dense environment and there are concerns.
Joshua you have commented about a build that will not employ typical FT methods, and insane levels of power. I ask, is that "in the spirit" of what these guys are trying to accomplish at Flite Fest? I know we both come from hardcore competition backgrounds. We have both represented the U.S. on world Champs teams. I see Flite Fest as a gathering of like minded souls looking to have fun, not a competition. Who benefits from a design that is this far out of the intent of the event?
It is really up to Dan, Stephen and Wilsonman to decide. Perhaps I am speaking out of turn. I love this idea. I would love to see a bunch of golden age air racers flying around in loose formation together at scale speeds "playing with each other" doing some pretend races at safe (meaning typical FT design type) speeds. If the designs become so advanced that the event is so far away from the spectators for safety that it is never seen, what is the point? Does there really even need to be a "race" I think just flying some cool looking airplanes with some cool guys would be its own reward.
last (possibly unpopular as my others) comment. Why do we need to have a course feature that "increases the chance for collision"? I like my airplanes. I tend to spend a decent amount of time on them. I like them to look good. I like to fly them, and although I know crashes are always a possibility, I am always looking to avoid those occurrences! There already is a combat event for people that want to get rid of the airplanes.
Thoughts?
Love the event idea. Glad we are discussing options to make it great.
~Jim Buxton
Good words, Mr. Jim. Good words.
What would you say to a limitation of using a class of motors/battery/esc that can be bought through the FT store? I'm not talking about the specific brand, just the specs. I am all in with you about the fun and "spirit" attitude you suggest. Would that help keep things in perspective?
I would offer, though, that in my reading up on all these air races during the 30s, there were a lot of crashes. Pilots died. There should be some level of risking foam and motors.
What would you say to a limitation of using a class of motors/battery/esc that can be bought through the FT store? I'm not talking about the specific brand, just the specs. I am all in with you about the fun and "spirit" attitude you suggest. Would that help keep things in perspective?
I would offer, though, that in my reading up on all these air races during the 30s, there were a lot of crashes. Pilots died. There should be some level of risking foam and motors.
Aviator08
Flagstaff,AZ
Well put Jim. +1 for me
We fly ParkZone warbird pylon racing at our field. Any aircraft they made. They are all close enough with the same prop/speed controller/ battery combo to make it a pilot skill race. Top speed is somewhere between 65 and 75 mph. It is almost as much fun to watch as it is to race. We race a 300ft course between pylons, and 10 laps. 5 planes at a time makes it exiting enough without any crossover pattern. I too like to keep my planes intact ( although I must admit I have been involved in a midair during a race.)
This is a picture taken from my spitfire during a race.... coming around pylon#2..... a split second away from the leader.
Anyway, this should be a lot of fun!!
Tim
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