Willy Nillie's Barnstormer Biplane

[TooJung2Die]

I think your proportions are spot-on. The height on the top wing looks perfect. It's looking like a Gypsy Moth. The Tiger Moth has swept wings. Won't having the top wing forward of the bottom wing have the side effect of moving the CG forward? With the sturdy tail section and short nose you'll probably be adding some lead to achieve CG.

The first time I encountered this biplane wing incidence difference was building the Guillow's SE5A. When making a jig for mounting the top wing I noticed the difference. I always assumed the wings were supposed to be parallel but the SE5A had a 0 degree top wing and a positive incidence bottom wing. Was this a mistake in the drawing? But how could there be an error in a kit that has been around longer than me? You guys filled me in and assured me that was normal.

 

[rockyboy]

I think your proportions are spot-on. The height on the top wing looks perfect. It's looking like a Gypsy Moth. The Tiger Moth has swept wings. Won't having the top wing forward of the bottom wing have the side effect of moving the CG forward? With the sturdy tail section and short nose you'll probably be adding some lead to achieve CG.

The first time I encountered this biplane wing incidence difference was building the Guillow's SE5A. When making a jig for mounting the top wing I noticed the difference. I always assumed the wings were supposed to be parallel but the SE5A had a 0 degree top wing and a positive incidence bottom wing. Was this a mistake in the drawing? But how could there be an error in a kit that has been around longer than me? You guys filled me in and assured me that was normal.

You make a very good point - that I hadn't considered - pushing the top wing that far forward looks awesome but it going to give me balance challenges.

Things I can do to address that....

1. Move the top wing back. Yuck. Don't like that look.
2. Add a bunch of dead weight to the nose. Yuck. Heavy things need to fly faster, land faster, and have more energy to dissipate in a crash. Bad news all around.
3. Extend the nose. This worked out great on my GeeBee Dreamer biplane, but will be a little trickier since the fuselage side plates are already cut to length and assembled. Possible, but not simple.
4. Push the bottom wing back. Again, a good idea if I was building from plans, but a lot of work to retrofit here.
5. Extend the motor mount. This helped a lot on my Ugly 3D - reduced required nose weight to almost 1/3 of the initial required amount. And there are some super cool looking 3D printed Cox motors designed to do just this!

Willy Nillie's has a great looking little 3D printed PeeWee 020 that fits a 1306 motor, but that's going to be a little small for my needs here. Time to go digging around the interwebs for a bit... or just wait for Doug to start shipping a mount sized for an 1806 motor which I'm certain he's planning to do


Also, from a silhouette perspective I think with a little tweak on the horizontal stabilizer and elevator (and some squinting) she could pass for a Foker D.VI or D.VII.

What'cha think? I'm really liking this covering scheme too.. I don't know that it's historically accurate, but it is a full scale flying reproduction.

 

[Willy Nillies]

You make a very good point - that I hadn't considered - that pushing the top wing that far forward looks awesome but it going to give me balance challenges.

Things I can do to address that....

1. Move the top wing back. Yuck. Don't like that look.
2. Add a bunch of dead weight to the nose. Yuck. Heavy things need to fly faster, land faster, and have more energy to dissipate in a crash. Bad news all around.
3. Extend the nose. This worked out great on my GeeBee Dreamer biplane, but will be a little trickier since the fuselage side plates are already cut to length and assembled. Possible, but not simple.
4. Extend the motor mount. This helped a lot on my Ugly 3D - reduced required nose weight to almost 1/3 of the initial required amount. And there are some super cool looking 3D printed Cox motors designed to do just this!

Willy Nillie's has a great looking little 3D printed PeeWee 020 that fits a 1306 motor, but that's going to be a little small for my needs here. Time to go digging around the interwebs for a bit...

Hey RockyBoy,

If you can wait about 1 week our .049 size motor mounts for 1806's will be ready to ship....

Sincerely,
Doug and Becky
WillyNillies.com

 

[rockyboy]

Hey RockyBoy,

If you can wait about 1 week our .049 size motor mounts for 1806's will be ready to ship....

Sincerely,
Doug and Becky
WillyNillies.com

Great plan! It would take me most of a week just to dig my 3D printer out of the closet where's it's been stored!

 

[chris398mx]

Hey RockyBoy,

If you can wait about 1 week our .049 size motor mounts for 1806's will be ready to ship....

Sincerely,
Doug and Becky
WillyNillies.com

Wow, WillyNillies is doing some great work. Awesome new kits you just released!

 

[Duffusmonkey]

Here's a couple close ups of the clamps for everyone who wants to build some.
View attachment 148685 View attachment 148686

I also got a minute before heading to the volleyball game to glue the last fuselage former in place and the rear sheeting part one.
View attachment 148684
View attachment 148687

I usually use rubber bands to hold it together, but I am notoriously cheep

 

[TooJung2Die]

What'cha think? I'm really liking this covering scheme too.. I don't know that it's historically accurate, but it is a full scale flying reproduction.

Do it. It's bold and not very complicated. Accurate Smackurate, it's the Barnstormer and not scale anything. Go bold.
Those .049 dummy glow engines are just what you need to help get the CG without ballast. They look awesome too. On second look the top wing is positioned rather aggressively forward of the bottom wing. Is it too late to compromise and move back a bit?

 

[rockyboy]

Do it. It's bold and not very complicated. Accurate Smackurate, it's the Barnstormer and not scale anything. Go bold. Those .049 dummy glow engines are just what you need to help get the CG without ballast. They look awesome too.

Appreciate the encouragement! Now I just need to double check that I've got covering with small enough black and white checkers to pull it off.... I think I have some in a box... just not sure which box!

On second look the top wing is positioned rather aggressively forward of the bottom wing. Is it too late to compromise and move back a bit?

Not to late to bring it back a little bit! No glue applied here yet!

I did some trimming on the cabane leg to bring the top back about 3/8", and did some sanding on the fuselage to closer match the airfoil of the bottom wing and let it settle back a little further and possibly level out that negative incidence too. Pictures and measurements coming shortly

 

[Willy Nillies]

You make a very good point - that I hadn't considered - pushing the top wing that far forward looks awesome but it going to give me balance challenges.

Things I can do to address that....

1. Move the top wing back. Yuck. Don't like that look.
2. Add a bunch of dead weight to the nose. Yuck. Heavy things need to fly faster, land faster, and have more energy to dissipate in a crash. Bad news all around.
3. Extend the nose. This worked out great on my GeeBee Dreamer biplane, but will be a little trickier since the fuselage side plates are already cut to length and assembled. Possible, but not simple.
4. Push the bottom wing back. Again, a good idea if I was building from plans, but a lot of work to retrofit here.
5. Extend the motor mount. This helped a lot on my Ugly 3D - reduced required nose weight to almost 1/3 of the initial required amount. And there are some super cool looking 3D printed Cox motors designed to do just this!

Willy Nillie's has a great looking little 3D printed PeeWee 020 that fits a 1306 motor, but that's going to be a little small for my needs here. Time to go digging around the interwebs for a bit... or just wait for Doug to start shipping a mount sized for an 1806 motor which I'm certain he's planning to do


Also, from a silhouette perspective I think with a little tweak on the horizontal stabilizer and elevator (and some squinting) she could pass for a Foker D.VI or D.VII.

What'cha think? I'm really liking this covering scheme too.. I don't know that it's historically accurate, but it is a full scale flying reproduction.

Rockyboy....... I think we need to cut you new tail feathers and ailerons.....

If you want the cabanes changed let us know and we will modify.

Sincerely,
Doug and Becky
WillyNillies.com

 

[MCNC]

Berna Assemblers MultiClamps

 

[rockyboy]

Berna Assemblers MultiClamps

Awesome!

Pricey little buggers, but very useful!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0037YEH0K/?tag=lstir-20

Rockyboy....... I think we need to cut you new tail feathers and ailerons.....

If you want the cabanes changed let us know and we will modify.

Sincerely,
Doug and Becky
WillyNillies.com

I'll post pictures of what I did with the cabanes for your consideration - I'm happy with the trimming I did, but this might help out for the next person doing one of these

As for the tail feathers I'm happy to make modifications here so you can focus on getting all those kits ready to ship! When I'm done it can all be inspiration for a Foker 250

 

[rockyboy]

I trimmed the front leg of the cabane so it settled a little further back - also as mentioned did some sanding on the bottom of the fuselage to match the wing profile better and let it settle back a little further also. Bottom wing is now only negative 1/2 degree, and the top is still set at 2 degrees positive.

Tack glued in with thin CA and a couple clamps...

Added the back top fuselage sheeting too...

More clamps after a little trimming of top sheeting. Glued in place - all access to the electronics will be through the bottom. Now that I'm thinking about it, I probably should have set the servos and control rods in place before doing this.... hopefully won't regret doing this out of order...

While all that's drying, let's fix another mistake I made! I cut the ailerons too short, so to extend them back out I'm gluing on some end caps. Cross grain will help strengthen and prevent warping, so that's a bonus!

Front nose sheeting trimmed to fit also. Everything looks pretty good up top!

The ESC will go in the top of the nose and I'm going to put the battery hatch on the bottom. It'll just be easier to get at the battery without the top wing getting in the way all the time.

 

[Willy Nillies]

Looking GREAT! You are right..... I need to focus. You almost squireled me there! The Frankenstein the laser has been going non-stop since 5:30pm.... have 100 sets of wing center sheeting and shear webs cut. Now on to Cub tail feathers and formers.....

Sincerely,
Doug (and Becky)
WillyNillies.com

 

[rockyboy]

Looking GREAT! You are right..... I need to focus. You almost squireled me there! The Frankenstein the laser has been going non-stop since 5:30pm.... have 100 sets of wing center sheeting and shear webs cut. Now on to Cub tail feathers and formers.....

Sincerely,
Doug (and Becky)
WillyNillies.com

All the eager little boys and girls (myself included) are happy to hear that!

Think of it as delegating the squirrel chasing

 

[rockyboy]

All the electronics stuffed in now - battery tray works fine as a servo tray, lets me move the servos closer to the nose too. Needed to grab longer control rods to make the new location work. The ESC slipped in just fine on the top side of the battery tray too - easy peasy! Picture is clamping and gluing a second bulkhead to keep the longer control rods from flexing.

Receiver bound and all servos and motor tested. My 2 cell fits fine - hopefully there is room for a skinny 3 cell too.

Connected the Aileron servos together so they can share a channel and then tucked the joints back into the wing.

And finally gluing on the front mounting spar to the wing since I decided to switch to bolt in on the bottom.

 

[rockyboy]

So after much consideration, I decided that I do want some landing gear on this one (even though I'm probably going to be hand launching mostly). That means I need to switch the battery hatch back up to the top.

A couple quick cuts with a scalpel frees the top hatch and I reinforce it with a second layer of balsa - it sticks out the back to form a tongue to keep it in place. Still thinking about how I want to keep the front in place. Switching the ECS to the other side was pretty easy with some tweezers to thread the wires into place.

Landing gear bent up out of some control rod wire, and adjusted to keep the gear forward of the CG to help reduce nose overs.

Bottom sheeting adjusted to let the gear pass through.

Adding some fuselage doublers to pin the landing gear in place. Will epoxy it into place once these are dried.

Just a few more things to do before it's time to start covering!

• Trim the bottom wing spar
• Epoxy landing gear
• Hatch latch / magnets
• Final fit and leveling of the bottom wing
• Level and adjust of the top wing
• Level the horizontal stabilizer
• Sand the control surface bevels
• Sand everything smooth
• Cover!

 

[TooJung2Die]

Good idea. A biplane needs landing gear even if you don't take off from the ground. They look odd without visible wheels. Can you think of any full scale biplane that had retractable gear? I got my Willie Nillie ordered. I can't wait to join the fun. I finished the Rat so I'll have to build another foamy to fill up the wait time.

 

[rockyboy]

Lower wing spar trimmed and landing gear epoxy in place, and bottom nose sheeting getting glued in.

Here's how to get a smooth matching profile on the wing seating area - mount the wing loosely in place and slide sandpaper in facing the fuselage.

Yeah, not quite level yet... needs more sanding on the saddle on the right side...

Here we go!

This picture & shadows look a little funny, but the wings are level and parallel within 1mm at the tips, and the stabilizer is level too!

On her gear and all together (except the control surfaces)

Covering will start soon - just need to get a chair re-caned...

 

[Willy Nillies]

Oh boy! Looks Great!!! You are going to squirrel me yet!

Sincerely,
Doug (and Becky)
WillyNillies.com

 

[The Hangar]

That looks amazing @rockyboy !